EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:04 pm 
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943208875

> "and three new D&D monster/character class entries accompanied by hand drawn illustrations."

Weresnowtigers!  8O 8)  

*lol*  :P

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:12 pm 
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943208875

> "and three new D&D monster/character class entries accompanied by hand drawn illustrations."

The Fu Dog seems to tie in with the Planes of Existence manuscripts ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943217039 ), however... (Foo Dogs by the time they make it into "The Elemental Plane of Air"); and on the description here "the other kind is bred by the sylphs of the air and guards their homes and persons".
(*searches for copy of MMII or OA(?)*)

Wonder whether ya could get any of these weresnowtigers into "The Para-elemental Plane of Ice", Mike. :wink:

Amused me, anyhow... :p
Good one, Steve!

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:15 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Harami said:

*g*. Hey, Mike. Did Paul tell you how lucky??


I'm not sure what you mean, Paul said noting to me about this?

I have all the items I won in hand, how about the rest of you guys?

Only just saw your note, Mike. (Last entry on the previous page. Apologies).


Well, I've got a headache, I think...
Tantalising fragments all over the place; a fair number of which mesh into the other auctions.

For example, a copied manuscript letter (7 Mar 76, just prior to the publication of Eldritch) to Peggy [Gemiganani?], which casually starts
"Dear Peggy,
Mystic Rules are special. It's a lot different from either Greyhawk or Blackmoor..."
and then goes on to list the many character rules he's sent in to Gary. (That's in addition to the separate (1976) list of "dungeons" he'd sent to various people; including loads of Elaikases material to Gary).
*
I'm now confused on the precise origin of the Bard, since his "Song Smiths" are one of the incomplete character rules listed (I've got another early typed copy of these mysteriously labeled "Appendix V", in addition to the latest Harpist reworking which was sold under a separate auction).
*
However, Stephen's note to Peggy casually states "... if you have a copy of Bard rules write Gary for Song Seeker (Song Smith) rules and compare and evaluate).
(Does this mean "borrowed"/reworked for SR#6, possibly???)

Judging by the tone of other references to alignment in that letter (apparently not yet fully developed), your manuscript on script on that is probably tail-end 1975 or poss. even early 1976; cutting it rather close to SR#6.

*LOL*. So that's now two reasons I now need to find my copy of that issue; one for the Bard class and the other for the alignment refs.

The latter reason is somewhat "after the fact", now...

What happened with that auction, Mike, is that I put in a minimum bid and asked Paul to compare the text with the version published in SR.
By the time a response arrived, it was only a couple of hours to auction close and I wasn't around.
Had intended to increase my bid depending on how close the match was.

As it was, I might not have done so at all... *shrugs*

What I hadn't realised is that Paul couldn't find his copy either, and had been hunting high-and-low for days! (Thank you, Paul :))

===

Anyhow, I got an alignment "freebie". :)

aside: I don't know when Stephen got his typewriter (Gary offered to give him one free after reading 115 pages of Elaikases manuscript :P), but it must post-date (?late 1976) your full manuscript, unless it was done on a different typewriter...
(Would appear to be Stephen's work anyhow, given the consistent typos).


Just the lower third of a page torn off;

"Having finished the Hawkmoon/Corum/Erikose/Elric cycle in the old editions, I'm considering reading the new ones (especially the new Elric stories) [ed: tallies 1976/7?]. A quote from the last of the last books:

... It has sometimes worked for good."
"Chaos is not wholly evil, surely?" said the child. "And neither is Law wholly good. They are primitive divisions, at best-- they represent only temperamental differences in individual men and women. There are other elements..."
...
"All are primitive," said the child.

And thus we have the last, definitive word on alignments from Michael Moorcock who is responsible for the original set up (tho' not what TSR did with it). I thought you might like the quote"



Cute :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:33 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:Just the lower third of a page torn off;

"Having finished the Hawkmoon/Corum/Erikose/Elric cycle in the old editions, I'm considering reading the new ones (especially the new Elric stories) [ed: tallies 1976/7?].


The first set of revisions to Moorcock's Eternal Champion characters was in general published by DAW paperbacks in 1977, but the first revisions began to appear as early as 1976 with Elric of Melniboné (I double-checked the date in two bibliographies to be sure).

Michael Moorcock via harami2000 wrote:A quote from the last of the last books:

... It has sometimes w orked for good."
"Chaos is not wholly evil, surely?" said the child. "And neither is Law wholly good. They are primitive divisions, at best-- they represent only temperamental differences in individual men and women. There are other elements..."
...
"All are primitive," said the child.


That's from the final episodes in the Quest for Tanelorn, which directly sequels the Hawkmoon tales, and wraps up Erekose (Eternal Champion/Silver Warriors), and the whole of the saga (to that time only, of course).  It was published by DAW in 1976 and originally by Mayflower in the UK in 1975.

And thus we have the last, definitive word on alignments from Michael Moorcock who is responsible for the original set up (tho' not what TSR did with it). I thought you might like the quote"


Cute :wink:


Thanks for sharing David!

Also, in the SR#6 front, I've got the Dragon Archive so if you want a copy of the .pdf, I can certainly send that to you and/or Paul :D


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:10 am 
 

grodog wrote:That's from the final episodes in the Quest for Tanelorn, which directly sequels the Hawkmoon tales, and wraps up Erekose (Eternal Champion/Silver Warriors), and the whole of the saga (to that time only, of course).  It was published by DAW in 1976 and originally by Mayflower in the UK in 1975.

Heh, heh... I was wondering.
Definitely remember liking that book (but my old SF&F is even more "archived away" here, if that were possible).

Many thanks for checking.

grodog wrote:Michael Moorcock via harami2000 wrote:

*LOL* 8)

grodog wrote:
Steve Marsh wrote:And thus we have the last, definitive word on alignments from Michael Moorcock who is responsible for the original set up (tho' not what TSR did with it). I thought you might like the quote"


Thanks for sharing David!

All of that makes me even more curious as to what's on those other two manuscript pages. (And to whom that letter fragment was originally sent... Am guessing Steve might've just put a bit of carbon paper in there, since I've got one or two other "thoughts" like that in the bundle).

So, did Steve obtain a copy of "Quest for Tanelorn" on import (the UK 1975 edition was paperback, anyhow)...?
It's the way he's using "last, definitive word" there... Difficult to know whether that's reading as being key to his instigation of the alignment system changes, rather than as post-validation.
Would tend to favor the former (albeit without the other potentially useful evidence from SR#6 and the manuscript) and am guessing that letter was typed sometime mid-late '76(?), although none of the dated typed material is prior to early '77, alas.

grodog wrote:Also, in the SR#6 front, I've got the Dragon Archive so if you want a copy of the .pdf, I can certainly send that to you and/or Paul :D

Heh. Thanks, Allan. I might take you up on that offer, rather than tear open the shrink on that Dragon/SR magazine archive box.
Would've done that, but didn't occur to me that Paul was having the same problem finding the issue in question... :?

Maybe I should've bought that other copy of the archive at $35 BIN, rather than throwing it to the board! :)  

Best wishes,
David.


p.s. Another problem I'm having, is that a some of the early fragmentary material reflects Steve's pre-D&D rune-influenced system and how this also appears to have interacted with Runequest for a couple of years after that was published.

Eventually he seems to have thrown his hands in the air trying to tie everything together, not long after he got back in touch with Gary (late 1979?), but am certain this has an impact on the "Planes of Existence" material as being "not just D&D" (in "origin").
He was out of touch with Gary for quite a few years prior to that date, as is noted on the back of Jake Jaquet's "rude letter" about Steve's lifetime Dragon subscription (which I'm very surprised he got back again!).

Am guessing he drifted back towards Runequest again as the Planes material didn't work out (in its current form, mid 1983, and certainly post 1985 when there's a letter to Mayfair Games to reclaim his "Monsters of the Planes" material; TSR presumably having gone cold before then).

Mike <improvstone> would be able to cross-validate most/all the above, I'd expect...

aside, I have spotted Steve's pages:
http://adrr.com/hero/wildhunt/slm022.htm
01 DOC , etc.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:32 pm 
 

Gary might be able to answer questions about this project himself.  He's answering questions right now here: Gary Gygax Q&A: part VII

At the very least, when you guys publish this stuff he can write one of his classic Forewards.  Oh, and did I mention I'll buy a copy (duh)?  ;)


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:31 am 
 

Napftor wrote:Gary might be able to answer questions about this project himself.  He's answering questions right now here: Gary Gygax Q&A: part VII

Thanks, Bret.
I do have an account, but don't post over there owing to time considerations (another rift in the space-time continuum to get sucked into ;)).
Anyone else is welcome to cut/paste as desired, but I thought I'd keep posting here in-line with the original auction and subsequent thread.

Was waiting for Allan, Mike or Mike to add more, but I do have further dating evidence to support the chronology as well as a "teaser review" (in feedback format) from another person to whom Steve sent a bound of the "Plane of Fire" in mid-1983.

The outline RPG system Steve had planned to release in the late 70s whilst out of touch with Gary & co. is fairly conclusive; incorporating one of his various d20/d% combat systems, skill-based advancement, his own rune-based magic system, planar material, etc.
Am still a bit unsure where the "spiritual skills" element falls into that, since it's not mentioned elsewhere and psionics have either been dropped or incorporated into that, despite more advanced proposals for psionics from another one of his earlier character classes- will have to check whether that's one of the pages from his own zines (the majority of the zine pages I've got, despite the auction description) or else might have been published in A&E or TWH (which I'm clueless about...).

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:43 am 
 

I'll check back again tonight after work, David---was working on taxes last night.

In the USA, collectables sold on eBay are taxed at 28% on the gains---good thing I haven't gotten around to selling anything there yet ;)


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:41 pm 
 

grodog wrote:In the USA, collectables sold on eBay are taxed at 28% on the gains---good thing I haven't gotten around to selling anything there yet ;)


The maximum tax rate on collectables is 28% but I would recommend against filing it on a schedule D, it would be better to file a schedule C (Business Income) that way you can deduct the ebay and paypal fees and if you keep a milage log you can even depreciate you car for all of those used bookstore hunting trips.  :)

Sorry, just got home from work and still have taxes on the brain...

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:11 pm 
 

McDuff wrote:
grodog wrote:In the USA, collectables sold on eBay are taxed at 28% on the gains---good thing I haven't gotten around to selling anything there yet ;)


The maximum tax rate on collectables is 28% but I would recommend against filing it on a schedule D, it would be better to file a schedule C (Business Income) that way you can deduct the ebay and paypal fees and if you keep a milage log you can even depreciate you car for all of those used bookstore hunting trips.  :)

Sorry, just got home from work and still have taxes on the brain...


You an accountant in your day job McDuff?


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:38 am 
 

Nah, working for H&R Block until I can decide what I really want to be when I grow up  :)

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:28 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Was waiting for Allan, Mike or Mike to add more, but I do have further dating evidence to support the chronology as well as a "teaser review" (in feedback format) from another person to whom Steve sent a bound (copy) of the "Plane of Fire" in mid-1983.

OK; think this one's worthwhile/somewhat amusing in the current context.
(aside: Mike <invincible>/Paul, did the bound copy tally with the date, above? I didn't bookmark that auction).

...

"Plane of Fire was nice. It was the large scale structure of the plane and its entries (sic?) and quirks that were the most interesting. Some of the creatures, such as the stone gnomes and the iron elves, might fit in better with a different plane. But many of the other creatures, such as the lurker with many mouths, the Blue School monks, and the Sons of Flame, were well-detailed, and fit in well with the imaginative ecology of the region. But again, it's the large-scale features that were the most evocative and rewarding, things such as the portals, the islands, the hollowspun forests, and the torrents and cascades of flame.

"In fact, it's just these latter features, with their suggestions of background myth and history, which are Plane's strongest points. You mentioned that you were leaving the details such as the City of Brass, the Sunstone Inferno, etc., to other hands. Since it seems like it'll be years before anything happens with Plane, with TSR's current preoccupation with low-level modules, why wait? Rather than wait for an uncertain fate at the hands of unknown writers, why not develop what you've got now? Instead of such delightful locales as the Brass City, it's those riffraff transmitters of xp's that you ought to let other people handle. New monsters are a c.p. a dozen, but well-realized planar material (or cultures in general) are less common.

"In connection with planes, demi-planes, etc., have you had any thoughts on the cube Dragon printed last spring with the assorted side/demi/semi-planes? It seems to me impossible to substantially differentiate them all from each other. Even the relatively smaller number of Outer Planes (not to mention the 666 levels of the Abyss!) is daunting. I remember you mentioning once some quasi-platonistic ideas in connection with the other planes..."

:)

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:01 pm 
 

OK; a little assistance from owners of early A&Es and TWHs would be appreciated! 8)
*
I'm fairly sure the various pages from the two zine sets mentioned below in the Steve Marsh auction were not included in one of the above, for the reasons stated (more certain of the first).
If anyone knows otherwise, plz let me know :)

1. Cupric Text/Tome of Copper (1977)
- stated to be various installments to complement play in Steve's PBM. (10 copies stated printed; 9 of whom including Mike Gunderloy are listed on the third issue).
Various D&D classes such as philosopher, early speciality mages (acid-based, as revised/used in Gunderloy's DW series), weretigers (of the regular type; stated to date from early 1974 and hence presumably a re-writing from his own RPG system), etc.
(Steve's 1976 list of character classes submitted to EGG would sit well in a "White Wolf" publication list over a decade and a half later ;))
Other interesting comments about Steve's contributions to Blackmoor, Eldritch and SR being "butchered", etc...

2. (The view from) Elaikases's Tower... (1977/9)
- Is possible to read this as being a subzine within an APA, but reads more as a personal zine, between references to A&E and in combination with his comment on http://adrr.com/hero/wildhunt/slm022.htm

Various other sheets don't fit easily into these categories...
- Would certainly be interested to know whether Steve's "Psychics as a Character Class" was published in A&E or TWH, since this develops upon earlier ideas on psionics. At a guess, this is a personal endeavor since the reverse refers to playtesting with this and other classes noted.
- Plus a second set (1979) of outline rules for Steve's RPG (in draft since 1972-3 (why not 1969?)) which ties in more with the Elaikases Tower material.
- Philosophy of the Spell Point System (1977/8ish). Discussion on various including Vance/Gygax system, hinting at more material from Steve distributed to other people for playtesting.

aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?
*
Still swamped IRL, alas...


[ed. re. "Elaikases's Tower"; found another reference which lists both A&E & TWH, so it can't be either. Plus the earliest date 1/1/78 referring to previous issues (non-Cupric Text (?))]

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:27 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?


I asked similar questions on Dragonfoot and Pied Piper. I took it to mean that he was happy to see his early works developed, and would give latitude and maybe support to those taking the time to do so. I believe this would extend to re-interpretation/incorporation of his other early work in so far as they contribute to the job in hand. Steve indicated a preference to updating those works to 1E AD&D, and gave free rein provided it were a benevolent undertaking. I imagine if it were a commercial project Steve would be reasonable, but would wish to exercise some of his IP rights for a share in royalies.

That was my take on our discussions re. City of the Revenaunt.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:55 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:That was my take on our discussions re. City of the Revenaunt.

Thanks, Ian, for checking.
Could you please throw me link/s to those you won, too.
Am afraid I didn't bid on quite a few owing to my focus on the alignment thoughts/discussion and that "archive".

Ironically, that online quote from Steve (Shattered Norns Home Page and Index) was on his Shattered Norns page, at least one area background of which I've got from a late 70s manuscript.

Noted that Steve put "all material contained herein may be used by anyone for any purpose" on his Cupric Text issues, but that would make more sense in playtesting mode beyond that specific campaign, of course. (And with a presumed circulation of 10, as well...).

"Updating to 1E AD&D" does sound amusing in context of the papers here, many of which tie into his own system thoughts, mostly OD&D, with later RQ input during his separation from TSR/EGG and precisely zero AD&D-specifics, afaik.
Is a sensible "common denominator", however.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:20 pm 
 

City of the Revenaunt

cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte ... 5943209698

I wanted something playable, and I think I got that. I imagine there are tie-ins with the Planes stuff (how Steve saw them in gameplay), but to a certain extent it can stand alone, as I'll probably only ever see Planes of Existance if Improvstone decides to publish.

There's no feedback from you on Stormber's recent profile. What did you pick up?

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:05 pm 
 

Hi, Just noticed this over at EN World:
"Hall of Many Panes D20 - Gygax - Going to print"
Here is a link to the press release:
Hall of Many Panes D20 - Gygax - Going to print
I wonder if this product once was part of what the Planes of Existence Manuscripts were going to be?

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:20 pm 
 

zanarchist wrote:Hi, Just noticed this over at EN World:
"Hall of Many Panes D20 - Gygax - Going to print"
Here is a link to the press release:
Hall of Many Panes D20 - Gygax - Going to print
I wonder if this product once was part of what the Planes of Existence Manuscripts were going to be?

Cute... thx ^^
Looks like just a single adventure on the generic theme, though.

To repeat, however, I'm fairly sure the early "Planes of Existence" material probably wasn't worked in combination with EGG (aside from Steve being out of touch with Gary for several years, that is!).

The Plane of Air is mentioned on the cover letter to Steve from Mike Gunderloy re. the Speciality Mages manuscript when that was going to be offered to Judges Guild, prior to Different Worlds launch ( dated 6/28/78 ).

"Plane of Air rules are EXCELLENT well thought out!
The blue Drakes are very nice-- parenthetically, a friend once suggested a dragon that breathes black holes, but I don't have the gall to write it up."


I can't see anything in the Plane's auction description to suggest Gary's involvement in that section, or a re-writing at a later date.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943217039

===

The Plane of Earth (same 1978 letter from Gunderloy) would appear to indicate some reworking at a later date with Gary, when compared with the auction description.

"Steve, I'd like to see a copy of the plane of Earth when you finish it. No great rush, tho... I can always visit you to look it over"

"Carcossians", as listed in the Plane's auction description were one of Steve's character rule sets from back in early 1976, btw.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:59 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:City of the Revenaunt

cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte ... 5943209698

I wanted something playable, and I think I got that. I imagine there are tie-ins with the Planes stuff (how Steve saw them in gameplay), but to a certain extent it can stand alone, as I'll probably only ever see Planes of Existance if Improvstone decides to publish.

There's no feedback from you on Stormber's recent profile. What did you pick up?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943207356
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943209100
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943208875

Thanks for the link, Ian. That explains one or two questions I had! :)


Actually, I find myself somewhat at odds with Paul's method of stripping out the "commercial" material and dumping the rest into a mis-identified lot. (Basic research would have flagged up that it wasn't just A&E, TWH, etc., material).
IMHO, definitely goes against the "Now you have the opportunity to be a curator of a portion of this legacy, care for it well and enjoy!" ethos when the underpinning material has been fragmented, thus.
(Goodbye to all that creation myth stuff, and suchlike).
JMHO, of course...

Back on your tourney mod; it's interesting that "Steve indicated a preference to updating those works to 1E AD&D" given that "City of the Revenaunt" is stated to be 1980s.
Don't know if that's when it was run...??
*
Notice you've got photocopies there, but can still spot at least one portion with the paper Steve started using in 1979(?).
Compare with;
Image
(note the title...)

The Verdigris Testament (as mentioned in your module) ties back a long way through Steve's work (n.b. "Cupric Text"/"Tome of Copper" before).

Get the feeling he kinda liked high level material, to say the least; Elaikases (per the manuscript material he gave to Gary in 1976), and other titled usage, being his character who'd effectively become an immortal prior to that (very early) date!

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:20 pm 
 

During our discussions Steve said he DM'd Revenault in '78 and '79. He could not recall details of the tourneys or name significant players. It was his opinion that City of the Revenaunt would make a good 1E AD&D module, and its existance on its own little demiplane ties in nicely with his development/exploration of the Planes of Existance.

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