EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript
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Post Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:41 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I don't understand why this discussion would be controversial in any way.

When the auctions were originally held, no-one knew the auctioneer was keeping backup scans of the products being sold.
It wasn't until after the RJK auction that it became common knowledge that these items were being scanned before they were sold.
So there could be unease when a buyer pays $hundreds for a manuscript, and later finds the unknown scan being used to reprint copies for people.
Technically, the original IP owner has the right to secretly request copies or consent to digital copies being stored by the auctioneer, and of course now we just assume that the auctioneer scanning everything before he sells it, and it;s not impacting on price. But at the time it was rather a shady way of doing business. I dare say, if the auction had read, 'a scan of this manuscript has been retained and may be used for future re-publication', it'd have had an impact on sale value.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:53 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:When the auctions were originally held, no-one knew the auctioneer was keeping backup scans of the products being sold.
It wasn't until after the RJK auction that it became common knowledge that these items were being scanned before they were sold.
So there could be unease when a buyer pays $hundreds for a manuscript, and later finds the unknown scan being used to reprint copies for people.
Technically, the original IP owner has the right to secretly request copies or consent to digital copies being stored by the auctioneer, and of course now we just assume that the auctioneer scanning everything before he sells it, and it;s not impacting on price. But at the time it was rather a shady way of doing business. I dare say, if the auction had read, 'a scan of this manuscript has been retained and may be used for future re-publication', it'd have had an impact on sale value.


If I find certain manuscripts are being reprinted based upon previously undisclosed scanned copies then Ethesis, Paul and I are going to have some strong words.  The IP ownership was made clear at the time of auction.  There is no doubt in my mind given the wording used during the auction that Ethesis was hoping some individuals would help carry the torch with those manuscripts and not just be picked up by a collector for storage.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:11 pm 
 

Improv wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:When the auctions were originally held, no-one knew the auctioneer was keeping backup scans of the products being sold.
It wasn't until after the RJK auction that it became common knowledge that these items were being scanned before they were sold.
So there could be unease when a buyer pays $hundreds for a manuscript, and later finds the unknown scan being used to reprint copies for people.
Technically, the original IP owner has the right to secretly request copies or consent to digital copies being stored by the auctioneer, and of course now we just assume that the auctioneer scanning everything before he sells it, and it;s not impacting on price. But at the time it was rather a shady way of doing business. I dare say, if the auction had read, 'a scan of this manuscript has been retained and may be used for future re-publication', it'd have had an impact on sale value.


If I find certain manuscripts are being reprinted based upon previously undisclosed scanned copies then Ethesis, Paul and I are going to have some strong words.  The IP ownership was made clear at the time of auction.  There is no doubt in my mind given the wording used during the auction that Ethesis was hoping some individuals would help carry the torch with those manuscripts and not just be picked up by a collector for storage.


If Doug and I can get permission, the original manuscript of Mistworld along with many other papers of Steve will get scanned and made available for research purposes.  These will be copies made from the originals and not any stored PDFs or such.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:18 pm 
 

(reply, as requested - not by Ian!)

mbassoc2003 wrote:
FormCritic wrote:I don't understand why this discussion would be controversial in any way.

When the auctions were originally held, no-one knew the auctioneer was keeping backup scans of the products being sold.
It wasn't until after the RJK auction that it became common knowledge that these items were being scanned before they were sold.

Well, that was Kynan's specific "issue": mine was a separate matter.

mbassoc2003 wrote:So there could be unease when a buyer pays $hundreds for a manuscript, and later finds the unknown scan being used to reprint copies for people.

Nothing new there. Or for people to be offering seriously large amounts of money for illegal photocopies of rare items. etc. etc.

Improv wrote:If I find certain manuscripts are being reprinted based upon previously undisclosed scanned copies then Ethesis, Paul and I are going to have some strong words.  The IP ownership was made clear at the time of auction.  There is no doubt in my mind given the wording used during the auction that Ethesis was hoping some individuals would help carry the torch with those manuscripts and not just be picked up by a collector for storage.

Afaik, the only manuscripts that had an explicit "OK to reprint" were Steve's perzines, but I'd added that "would prefer that he could help guide in the manner in which this is brought back together again" (and with his other material) rider, of course. I'd thought Doug had planned to auction those off at the con (for NTRPG funds?) but had asked him not to do so "immediately" when I sent those over, plus the miscellaneous material which helped to tie together some of the history, etc. (None of the "major" items in there).


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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:52 am 
 

Then I am confused.... (nothing new, but)....

I thought this thread was about using the manuscript to bring the finished product back to print.

Is this thread actually just about printing a copy of the manuscript?

(Buried manuscripts are a problem in game research IMO.  The one that irks me the most is the Kuntz version of City of Brass.)


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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:05 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I thought this thread was about using the manuscript to bring the finished product back to print.
Is this thread actually just about printing a copy of the manuscript?


Intent from my perspective has always been about bringing a finalised product NOT just the unedited manuscript.  Intent has always been to involve Stephen and other experienced members of this community.


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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:15 am 
 

Badmike wrote:If Doug and I can get permission, the original manuscript of Mistworld along with many other papers of Steve will get scanned and made available for research purposes.  These will be copies made from the originals and not any stored PDFs or such.
Mike B.


Hey Mike. Doesn't sound like a bad idea ....


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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:42 am 
 

Improv wrote:
Badmike wrote:If Doug and I can get permission, the original manuscript of Mistworld along with many other papers of Steve will get scanned and made available for research purposes.  These will be copies made from the originals and not any stored PDFs or such.
Mike B.


Hey Mike. Doesn't sound like a bad idea ....


The items included would be the letters and partial writings included in the items originally bought by Faro (which Doug has now, you can confirm this if it's true David, I believe so).  I believe what we might do (spitballing here) is to make the Mistworld available as a digest or similar format (it is already available online anyway), while the letters and such would be available on a disc.  Eventually the original materials (as a complete set) might be auctioned off. The main thrust would be number one to use the funds to help support the NTRPG con, number two to keep them together in one place to one owner (where hopefully he wouldn't split them up in the future), and number three to make them more widely available for research purposes (the more copies out there, the better).

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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:44 am 
 

I'd welcome seeing Planes of Existence presented as book, and City of the Revenant as an accompanying adventure, and I'd also like to see the original Hobby Shop dungeon in some form akin to RJK's Bottle City, but I don't see it happening anytime soom, TBH, and I'd expect the distribution of the lion's share of any profit (and control of the final product rights) to be in the hands of both the IP owner and the manuscript owners at the very least. To cut the MS owners out of the loop would seem a little morally questionable.


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Post Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:53 pm 
 

I'm not following - why would a manuscript owner expect to profit from publishing sales?

Am I saying something wrong?


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Post Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:34 am 
 

The way I see it, if you buy a MS, marketted as a rare only copy exclusive one off piece of history (MJ's rare unpublished Children's Bedtime Companion for example), and you shell out many thousands of GPs, there is something screwy if you later find out the seller kept scans of the product and was going to publish it now that they've got your cash safely in the bank. In taht situation the buyer should at the very least have a say in the progression of any prospective reprint, as it clearly was an unstated/concealed factor directly related to the sale of the item and engineered to ensure a higher sale price.

In the later scenario, if the buyer were a collaborating member of a team, bringing their collected works of rare MS's to publication with others and with the IP owners' concent, I would suggest that the MS owner, being the major monetary investor and owner of the original works, along with the IP owner/creator, were the majority shareholders in the project and entitiled to control the distribution of any resulting profits. For the IP owner to profit from the sale of his own MS, knowing (or not knowing) that a secret copy were retained, and then for the IP owner to consent to a course of action that uses the unknown copy to screw over the original buyer of his MS would be pretty morrally fucked up.

Either way, these are all hypothetical and moot, as it appears discussions are only pertaining to materials generally already in the public domain.

But if you were to extend the discussion to a possible reprint of the Planes of Existence MS or the Hobby SHop Dungeon, then a course of action that acts against the interests of original MS buyers could probably even now be demonstarted as a breach of the original sale agreement on grounds of failure to disclose pertinant facts during the auction.


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Post Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:11 am 
 

Manuscript ownership does not equal IP ownership.  Simple as that.  I would decribe this as a "remarkably clear point."


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Post Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:14 pm 
 

Obviously. Buy if you bought an original painting from EO, and it was sold as one off or unique, never published or used in the industry, and you shell out $5K, frame it and stick it on your wall, you don't own the IP.

If you subsequently find out that the artist kept digital imaging of the painting and began selling a limited print run at $75 a pop, you must surely question the nature of the original disclosure at point of sale, and whether or not you feel screwed or not? I can understand not being able to get to grips with why people have an issue with what went down in the past and what's going down now, especially if you've not invested in uniques before, or in the many thousands of dollars before, but for those who have and did, there is a very real uneasiness with the way these hings happenned.

IP aside, there is a moral issue, and like the TS! repro issue, it all comes down to how far each of us feels comfortable in ripping someone else off. Clearly the IP is solely the possession of the author and the author can do with it as they see fit.


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Post Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:35 pm 
 

I was just yanking your chain, Ian.   :D


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:38 am 
 

Personally I'd like to see them all published in an appropriate old school style, and I'd be happy to buy. From what I read of City of the Revenant it was a very complex MS with no real apparent timeline or direction, and a set of conditions that would make DMing it a bit of a nightmare, so I'd assume if it were ever to be published it would be more like Bottle City in presentation than a conventional playable out of the book dungeon. But then having seen Deep Water Shallow Graves, that tends to be the nature of unpublished works. You get the bones of the material, and somethines the playtesting amendments and notes, and either the future editor/developer, or the reader have to put together the rest from their own imagination.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:34 pm 
 

Wow, I was doing a search for something and this thread popped up.

If anyone still has an interest in any thing based off the manuscripts I wrote, they still have my blessing.

I'll note that Fifth Edition D&D is the first one that is compatible enough with OD&D that you could do a product that would work for both.

Anyway, a blast from the past, and one I was glad to see.

Now, if someone wanted to use the Harpist rules to replace the 5th Edition Bards with something fun ... ;)

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:54 am 
 

Steve Marsh wrote in EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript:Wow, I was doing a search for something and this thread popped up.

If anyone still has an interest in any thing based off the manuscripts I wrote, they still have my blessing.

I'll note that Fifth Edition D&D is the first one that is compatible enough with OD&D that you could do a product that would work for both.

Anyway, a blast from the past, and one I was glad to see.

Now, if someone wanted to use the Harpist rules to replace the 5th Edition Bards with something fun ... ;)


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:59 am 
 

Badmike wrote in EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript:
Improv wrote:
Hey Mike. Doesn't sound like a bad idea ....


The items included would be the letters and partial writings included in the items originally bought by Faro (which Doug has now, you can confirm this if it's true David, I believe so).  I believe what we might do (spitballing here) is to make the Mistworld available as a digest or similar format (it is already available online anyway), while the letters and such would be available on a disc.  Eventually the original materials (as a complete set) might be auctioned off. The main thrust would be number one to use the funds to help support the NTRPG con, number two to keep them together in one place to one owner (where hopefully he wouldn't split them up in the future), and number three to make them more widely available for research purposes (the more copies out there, the better).

Mike B.


And just to update we do have Steve's permission to reprint Mistworld, but as you can see it's something we haven't had time for the last two years.  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:11 am 
 

Bad Mike has my permission to reproduce and share anything I've written (in the manuscripts) and to do derivative works from them.

Just to be perfectly clear.

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:14 am 
 

Steve Marsh wrote in EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript:Bad Mike has my permission to reproduce and share anything I've written (in the manuscripts) and to do derivative works from them.

Just to be perfectly clear.


We'd have to reformat it, for the first hurdle (I believe the copy Steve gave us is on dot-matrix printer paper!!!!!)  When we do, we'll let you have a pass-through with the editor's pen, Steve, before we print it up...

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