EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:55 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Harami wrote:

Yep; very close I must admit: sat there for five minutes looking at the button thinking about my credit card.

Will let it pass to IO or whoever.




:P .... :lol:


Well; if not one Mike, then <improv>, phps? ;)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:03 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
invincibleoverlord wrote:Harami wrote:





:P .... :lol:


Well; if not one Mike, then <improv>, phps? ;)




well just gotta be careful with £ atm. want to keep what i get for myself and not have to sell it if i fall into the shit really. mind you, its unique....but then i think i would be under pain of death if i got that :D



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Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:30 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
invincibleoverlord wrote:Harami wrote:





:P .... :lol:


Well; if not one Mike, then <improv>, phps? ;)




Hmm ... I may be mistaken but the bin price yetserday was  £350 and today it is  £400??

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:34 pm 
 

improvstone wrote:Hmm ... I may be mistaken but the bin price yetserday was £350 and today it is £400??


Did you get my PM?

For everyone else here, I need to add it eBay's extortionate chunk. I'm more than willing to take private offers and reduce the price if I'm not paying eBay their fees.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:55 am 
 

The description and photo have been added, and a copy of the White Dwarf DVD is being thrown in (I can't seem to shift them).


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:58 pm 
 

In the Tsojconth auction thread, folks said:



harami2000 wrote:
improvstone wrote:Seriously, David it is about time we organised an Acaeum party at GenCon 2006. We could even organise some sort of gaming momento fo acaeum members that attend.


Is that the target release date for Steve's "Planes" material? ;)




I haven't been following this lately, has there been any serious efforts to move forward with publishing Steve's original planar auctioned materials???


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:03 pm 
 

Over on DF in Steve's Q&A thread @ Dragonsfoot • View topic - Q&A With Steve Marsh I posted the following comment in response to one of Ian's and Steve's posts:

grodog wrote:
Steve Marsh wrote:I'd love to see things published.  Unfortunately, when I sold the tournament module copies I sold my personal copies, I don't have any copies of the material.  If one of the people who got one when Paul sold them wants to adapt it for publishing and sell it, I wish them all the best luck in the world.  They are even welcome to 50% authorship credit and a 50/50 split on any sales revenue.  Editing and clean-up are well worth half the credit and half the copyright.

[snip]I think that the auction winners weren't interested at the time.


I agree: I tried to rally the Acaeum auction winners around the idea of publishing Steve's materials, but there was no interest at the time by the top 5 winners; see the thread @ EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript  

Perhaps things have changed, now that we've seen at least one good, solid ms. reproduction published so far (Bottle City), and  we can gather the disparate elements together to see them published.  Thoughts?


So, I'm going to raise the question again:  are the current owners of the Starstrands and Planes of Existence and City of Revenant and related materials willing and interested in coming together to publish them?  It appears that they key threads are this one and the ones @
"City of the Revenant" 1978 D&D tournament adv and
The BIG show of hands!

I thought I had summarized in one of the threads who the key players were, in terms of the ms. owners, but I can't find that post now.  My (quite possibly off) recollection is that they were David/harami, Mike/io, Ian/mbassoc, and one or two others who I don't recall.  

FWIW, I envision a Bottle-City-like production in terms of original materials, with notes/commentary, and potentially expansions on the original materials into a fully-playable format.  That's way down the road, though :D

Any thoughts/input, and pointers to the other mss. owners would be appreciated!


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:24 pm 
 

grodog wrote:Over on DF in Steve's Q&A thread @ Dragonsfoot • View topic - Q&A With Steve Marsh I posted the following comment in response to one of Ian's and Steve's posts:



So, I'm going to raise the question again:  are the current owners of the Starstrands and Planes of Existence and City of Revenant and related materials willing and interested in coming together to publish them?  It appears that they key threads are this one and the ones @
"City of the Revenant" 1978 D&D tournament adv and
The BIG show of hands!

I thought I had summarized in one of the threads who the key players were, in terms of the ms. owners, but I can't find that post now.  My (quite possibly off) recollection is that they were David/harami, Mike/io, Ian/mbassoc, and one or two others who I don't recall.  

FWIW, I envision a Bottle-City-like production in terms of original materials, with notes/commentary, and potentially expansions on the original materials into a fully-playable format.  That's way down the road, though :D

Any thoughts/input, and pointers to the other mss. owners would be appreciated!


If Gro is behind it, I think it will have a good chance of succeeding.

Cmon, guys, what do you think? Where is the fun of hording all the goodies for yourselves?????  :D

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:04 pm 
 

grodog wrote:FWIW, I envision a Bottle-City-like production in terms of original materials, with notes/commentary, and potentially expansions on the original materials into a fully-playable format.  That's way down the road, though :D

excellent idea pity was not kept together at start

  


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:03 pm 
 

I should note that Eric Shook plans to do Starstrands, and has gotten started on it.


Regards,



Stephen

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:58 pm 
 

Doing something like the Bottled City sounds good.  Has any idea about the over all costs and management of it?  I'm happy to help if I can.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:09 pm 
 

I asked on Dragonsfoot but I'll ask again here.  Doesn't Paul have an archival copy of these?

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:16 pm 
 

Mars wrote:I asked on Dragonsfoot but I'll ask again here.  Doesn't Paul have an archival copy of these?

was only done starting rjk?? thought was other archive copy for revenaunt but might be wrong

  


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:10 pm 
 

Mars wrote:I asked on Dragonsfoot but I'll ask again here.  Doesn't Paul have an archival copy of these?


No, Steve didn't want Paul to archive them, so he didn't (per discussions I've had with him in the past).


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:12 pm 
 

Howdy All,


The Collector's Trove archiving service was offered to Steve but he had come to a point where he was letting go of both the physical and spiritual possession of these various projects and manuscripts. I had even taken much of the material to an intellectual property lawyer to see if Steve could gain restitution for all of his lost royalties on his considerable contributions to the D&D and AD&D games. The opinion of the IP lawyer was that the ship had sailed and it would cost Steve dearly to pursue such a thing vs. Hasbro.

Steve decided to let it go after that. It had been years of his heart and soul put into it and the project never came to fruition. So Steve decided that there would be no archive.

I received a little heat for doing archives for later collections but, to be perfectly clear, there would have been no auctions for Bottle City or for the Castle Greyhawk levels or for The Dungeon Hobby Shop Dungeon or for many other items. The archive was the only thing that made way for those auctions.

While, I was initially hesitant on creating archives for collection owners, I am now fully confident that it was the right choice. If I had to do it over again, I would have insisted that I make an archive for Steve.

Outside of RPG collecting there are many highly valuable documents that are fully archived and that does not affect their value one bit e.g., The Magna Carta. Nonetheless, some have bemoaned the fact that they do not have the sole possession of the information. I completely understand that feeling. It is clearly a double-edged sword.

Now we have a prime example of why these archives are so important. Here's hoping that we finally get to see Steve's version of the Planes of Existence, Revenaunt, and Starstrands.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:34 pm 
 

The bulk of the materials, as I recall, maybe 80% of the materials to be published, maybe more, are owned by Mike. So it's really down to him to consider whether a published product would deminish his percieved value, or the actual value, of his purchases. With Steve giving his permission, and establishing an initial point for negotiation of terms, we need to see what Mike has to say.

And that will really depend on how he felt his investment was affected by the Bottle City publication.

FWIW, there are three distinct pieces of work here I can see: Starstrands which is an ongoing PPP project and therefore not relevant. Revenant which is scattered across collectors, and for which I believe David holds some key information pieces, and for which Mike has the only known copy of Steve's gameplay notes and recollections from playtesting; And then there is Planes of Existance, an opus in it's own right, but also an item which must hold some key information relevant to Revenant.

Mike will have the final say. If someone is willing to do the work, he may be willing to provide access to the materials, but will also be entitles to a fair chunk of any proffit. And I see this as being a labour of love on some people's part. There is no proffit to be had here. Is Steve aware of that possibility, because you really need his input at every stage of writing?

PS: Paul, you do an excellent job bringing these to auction. Much appreciated, even if I don't win what I want to win.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:09 pm 
 

The Collector's Trove wrote:I received a little heat for doing archives for later collections but, to be perfectly clear, there would have been no auctions for Bottle City or for the Castle Greyhawk levels or for The Dungeon Hobby Shop Dungeon or for many other items. The archive was the only thing that made way for those auctions.


And relatedly, without the archives, there would never have been a print edition of Bottle City, nor any other future "original manuscript" publications from RJK (or anyone else Paul sold/will sell for.  

Hopefully we'll be able to muster the collectors to the cause! :D


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:34 pm 
 

grodog wrote:
And relatedly, without the archives, there would never have been a print edition of Bottle City, nor any other future "original manuscript" publications from RJK (or anyone else Paul sold/will sell for.  

Hopefully we'll be able to muster the collectors to the cause! :D


Collectors or collector?  :wink:

With regard to the Bottle city I have no problem with PPP publishing a print edition as I don't believe it negatively affects the value.  Rather, I supect the print version has increased the awareness of the original ...  

What I don't remember Paul doing as part of his auctions was clearly stating that high resolution copies were being made and kept with the intent to publish. Maybe this was stated somewhere and I missed it.  Would this information have changed the outcome .... No.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:35 pm 
 

Ok .. here is my two cents for what it's worth ....

Steve Marsh wrote:I'd love to see things published...


So would I ... I certainly believe Steve was unfairly treated by TSR and for that reason alone deserves to have had his material published.

Having said that, there is a lot of work to be done to shape the source material into a publishable form.   Hopefully Steve won't take offence when I say his concepts are brilliant but his writing/editing skills are not up to the EGG standard :-)

Steve Marsh wrote:They are even welcome to 50% authorship credit and a 50/50 split on any sales revenue.  Editing and clean-up are well worth half the credit and half the copyright.


Sorry Steve I don't believe you are in the driving seat on this one. We can discuss offline.  

Steve Marsh wrote:I think that the auction winners weren't interested at the time.


You know that isn't true ... We even discussed the development of the Revenant as a campaign environment and your contribution of new modules to this environment.  I believe you even came up with some high level concepts for some modules.

Grodog wrote:I tried to rally the Acaeum auction winners around the idea of publishing Steve's materials


I don't remember ever being asked to a rally :-) ...
I was (am) interested in the potential of publishing the material from the time the auctions were listed.  Thus the manuscripts were purchased with this possibility in mind.

The prime reason I have not followed up on this is my time availability.  Having said that, I did spend quite a bit of time, effort and $ assisting an RPG publishing company get off the ground.  Out of which came discussions on publishing Steve's work.  Initially this looked an attractive option. A small publishing company with old school values and strong links to the gaming community.  

Unfortunately my experience with that company has left a sour taste.  Allan, while you have my utmost respect you are still associated with a business model I cannot support. I have watched how customers have been dealt with since my departure.  I am sad to say that the lack of communication, openess and late shippings has continued. I point this out so you understand why I am hesitant to respond to your call of arms.


mbassoc2003 wrote:Mike will have the final say. If someone is willing to do the work, he may be willing to provide access to the materials, but will also be entitles to a fair chunk of any proffit. And I see this as being a labour of love on some people's part. There is no proffit to be had here. Is Steve aware of that possibility, because you really need his input at every stage of writing?


I am sure he is ... as I am acutely aware of the investment I would need to make to bring this fruition.  I am also sure Steve is aware that if his manuscripts had been published by TSR he would not have received a 50/50 cut of sales. I have seen the level of commissions current publishing houses pay to their authors.  Dont expect to get rich anytime soon :-)

To sum up. I would love to see Steve's work published.  I am also aware that it most likely a loss making excerise and I am not sure the current financial climate is the best time to launch new material.


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Post Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:36 am 
 

improvstone wrote:Collectors or collector?  :wink:


It seems I was wrong on thinking that the Marsh materials were divided among more folks:  it has been a few years ;) :D  And, btw, it's good to see you here, Michael :D

improvstone wrote:I was (am) interested in the potential of publishing the material from the time the auctions were listed.  Thus the manuscripts were purchased with this possibility in mind.


Excellent.

improvstone wrote:The prime reason I have not followed up on this is my time availability.  [snip]

Unfortunately my experience with [PPP] has left a sour taste.  Allan, while you have my utmost respect you are still associated with a business model I cannot support. I have watched how customers have been dealt with since my departure.  I am sad to say that the lack of communication, openess and late shippings has continued. I point this out so you understand why I am hesitant to respond to your call of arms.


Completely understood, Michael.  However, while I said that I'd like to follow the model for Bottle City as a published product, I never said that I thought that this should be a PPP product.  That's a reasonable assumption to make, given my connection with Rob, but it's not correct.  

Relatedly, Ian mentioned that he thought that the Starstrands materials wouldn't have much potential, since Eric Shook is writing it for PPP.  However, I believe that while there will be areas of connection between Eric's work and Steve's work, that they will likely be separate, and that a reproduction of the StarStrands materials would also be of interest to those buying the Planes of Existence and City of the Revenaunt.

improvstone wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:Mike will have the final say. If someone is willing to do the work, he may be willing to provide access to the materials, but will also be entitles to a fair chunk of any proffit. And I see this as being a labour of love on some people's part. There is no proffit to be had here. Is Steve aware of that possibility, because you really need his input at every stage of writing?


To sum up. I would love to see Steve's work published.  I am also aware that it most likely a loss making excerise and I am not sure the current financial climate is the best time to launch new material.


I'm not sure that the downturn would significantly affect the purchase power of the core audience:  collectors and OD&D/AD&D fans (who are generally in their 30s and 40s and 50s, and can afford a $50 module if they want it).  That's certainly my hunch.  

FWIW, I also don't think that it has to be a product that generates a loss.  It may not make much money, perhaps, but I think it should be possible to structure the product price points that you wouldn't lose money, Michael.  

Anyway, I'm happy to see everyone's continued interest in this idea.  What should our next steps be, Michael?


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