mbassoc2003 wrote:harami2000 wrote:aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?I asked similar questions on Dragonfoot and Pied Piper. I took it to mean that he was happy to see his early works developed, and would give latitude and maybe support to those taking the time to do so. I believe this would extend to re-interpretation/incorporation of his other early work in so far as they contribute to the job in hand. Steve indicated a preference to updating those works to 1E AD&D, and gave free rein provided it were a benevolent undertaking. I imagine if it were a commercial project Steve would be reasonable, but would wish to exercise some of his IP rights for a share in royalies.That was my take on our discussions re. City of the Revenaunt.
harami2000 wrote:aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?
mbassoc2003 wrote:Thanks, Steve.The notes would appear to be editorial notes with a view to bringing the scenario into line with the D&D system.The first note with regard to the 'house rules' reads 'Material for use with D&D must be at least close to the D&D system. Granted, everybody runs things their own way, but those choices should be left up to them....'Followed by a note on the following page to 'Please put all plugs and recommendations at the back of the publication.' And comments seeking clarification, 'Further explanation needed.' and notes on the D&D rules system, 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.' and, 'Note that saving throws are applicable.' It would appear that the scenario was editted at some point, maybe by TSR or maybe by Judges Guild (although the rules are D&D specific).So, I was trying to see if I could piece together a timeline for the development of the scenario.At present it would appear to have been written in 1977 and early '78, playtested and amended late in '78 and 1979, and subsequently at some point submitted to TSR for possible publication (or maybe tournament approval?).Any blanks that you could fill in would be tremendous.Many thanks,Ian
Ethesis wrote:Paul pretty much has it right. I had finally decided to just get rid of everything and give up on every seeing it published and was going to give some of it away and throw the rest of it out when a good friend suggested that I trust "storm beard" and I'm glad I did.
mbassoc2003 wrote:The copy I have of City of the Revenaunt is a photocopy of an original manuscript that Steve used to DM with, and has notes and adjustments to it in a variety of different pens.Steve indicated that he DM'd this City as a tournament module, and as a feature City within his ongoing campaign during '78 and'79. I believe the original manuscript was passed to Mayfair Games along with a copy of the Planes of Existance manuscript (reworked), just prior to them folding. From there the original works disappear.Does anyone know of any other existing copies of the City of the Revenaunt or Planes of Existance manusripts, either in whole or in part?Steve recalls running the City as a tournament module in '78 or '79, but cannot recall where, or any of the players (although I have the PC sheets). Has anyone any recollection of playing or watching this module?
mbassoc2003 wrote:We are trying to outline the chronology of key stages in the development of your universe (Cupric Texts, Revenaunt, Planes of Existance).
mbassoc2003 wrote:For my part, I would like to establish when the D&D editing of Revenaunt took place, and whether it was TSR or Judges Guild (seeking TSR approval) that provided the editorial (I'm still hunting Gary's handwriting for comparison).
mbassoc2003 wrote:It would appear that the scenario was editted at some point, maybe by TSR or maybe by Judges Guild (although the rules are D&D specific).
mbassoc2003 wrote:And comments seeking clarification, 'Further explanation needed.' and notes on the D&D rules system, 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.' and, 'Note that saving throws are applicable.'
mbassoc2003 wrote:At present it would appear to have been written in 1977 and early '78, playtested and amended late in '78 and 1979, and subsequently at some point submitted to TSR for possible publication (or maybe tournament approval?).
stormber wrote:Howdy David,harami2000 wrote:Actually, I find myself somewhat at odds with Paul's method of stripping out the "commercial" material and dumping the rest into a mis-identified lot. (Basic research would have flagged up that it wasn't just A&E, TWH, etc., material).Well you can't make everyone happy. My main goal was to make Steve some money for his efforts. I took a jumbled collection of papers from Steve and organized them into categories that would make Steve the most amount of money. Sure, I took the more commercial items out, those are the items that engendered bidding competition. II think the collection is in the right hands, everybody's!Listen, Steve worked at this thing for many, many years, time after time he was disappointed. Promises were made to him that were never kept. He spent a lot of time and energy on this material. The fact is, Steve has spent enough of his life on this (his words), if somone wants to they can take it up from here. It seems you guys are falling right into line - lets see if you can carry it to completion. Steve tried for over 10 years, will you?Futures Bright,Paul
harami2000 wrote:Actually, I find myself somewhat at odds with Paul's method of stripping out the "commercial" material and dumping the rest into a mis-identified lot. (Basic research would have flagged up that it wasn't just A&E, TWH, etc., material).
You see that's it, Gary's involvement has been virtually erased. He lost all of his materials regarding this save his personal letters to Steve and the Plane of Earth materials included in the lot (these he turned over to Steve in 1989). Lorraine Williams ordered Gygax's office sealed and he was never able to recover any of these materials. Including the reworked Starstrands {including the entire pantheon and runic system that went with it} module. Gary and Steve believe the material was simply destroyed. Just like all of that artwork... fools.
mbassoc2003 wrote:harami2000 wrote:*wonders again what Gary did with Steve's Elaikases material from back in 1975/6*I know nothing of the backstory to this discussion. I get the impression that you know more about what I have that I do. Certainly more about the genesis or it, if not the actual text.Do you have/keep notes on your perceived chronology of those early years (and the interactions between the main players), and would you care to share them?I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t= ... highlight=I'm still searching for the others.
harami2000 wrote:*wonders again what Gary did with Steve's Elaikases material from back in 1975/6*
harami2000 wrote:mbassoc2003 wrote:I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8672<clip>"I ran it as a campaign element or part, not as the heart of the campaign, if that makes sense. It made for a great brooding background element.The backstory is that there was a city of sorcerers, someone brought the revenaunt in, they had a war and the city kicked loose from reality, taking the revenaunt with it. One of those "we had to destroy the city in order to save it" sort of things."</clip>*g* (*grins*). That's the one; per the "since you're now referring to material the board hasn't even seen, yet..." note at the top of the previous page.I wish I had much more backstory to that campaign. Input from Steve and the playtesters would certainly be required for that aspect, but it nestles in very neatly in the context of his ongoing development work on the Planes.As noted before, Elaikases was Steve's early character who effectively went immortal. Gary certainly didn't approve of that "Monty Haul" (sic.) approach; and given his comments on 3e probably still doesn't!Anyhow; Elaikases got woven in a bit into the mythology and later (*coughs* 1977) developments... kinda an overlayer on top of his original "universe" design concepts, anyhow.Rather than old Dragons, you really need old A&Es/TWHs.Alas, every time I made an offer to Frank for his, Paul upped it.
mbassoc2003 wrote:I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8672
Ethesis wrote:I was corresponding steadily with Gary through going on a mission for the LDS Church and returning to school through going to work at TSR for the summer of 1980. I wasn't <i>definitely out of touch with Gary</i> ...
Ethesis wrote:I admit, after Gary ended up in Hollywood
Ethesis wrote:and the Blumes took over, I was more than a little out of touch with TSR. I was going to start working for TSR in 1982 and they sent me a rather nasty letter withdrawing that employment offer.
Ethesis wrote:The original Planes of Reality documents are still missing. I was hoping to find them in storage or to get them back from Mayfair.
Ethesis wrote:I'm mailing Paul my orange cover copy of Palace of the Porno Princess (ok, bad joke) and some misc. stuff one keeps around for 1E players and my first printing Player's Handbook.
Ethesis wrote:Elaikases started out, pre-D&D as an immortal ... and was also a character who made it all the way to level 12 or so a campaign with 95% or so attrition run by Sandy P.
Ethesis wrote:Not sure that counts as Monty Haul, since it is kind of in reverse
harami2000 wrote:Heh, heh... Just read some of Steve's comments on the previous page...{clip} ... The port to his "Shattered Norns"/RQ setting is kinda cute Shifting City -- Scenarios for Runequest Characters destined for Heroquesting .Still have a very few bits and bobs from that here. (In addition to a few more RQ cults beyond those which were published in the Dungeoneer, I think).
harami2000 wrote:Ethesis wrote:Paul pretty much has it right. I had finally decided to just get rid of everything and give up on every seeing it published and was going to give some of it away and throw the rest of it out when a good friend suggested that I trust "storm beard" and I'm glad I did."Storm beard"... *chuckles*.Strange how these things work out...Greetings, Stephen!Thank you for all your work and much appreciated for taking the time to visit this "pocket universe".Am sure there's a question or five lurking for you here! Best wishes,David.Oh, and did you ever get paid for those ideas/contributions of yours which were "butchered" in their presented forms in Blackmoor, Eldritch and the Strategic Review? Hrr.....
harami2000 wrote:Ethesis wrote:..."2-3 years unanswered questions from TSR... Eventually I wrote Gary at home. Seems he never had received any of my letters.... As I'm back in contact with Gary..."II and Gary wrote each other a lot about the planes of reality, unencumbered by other discussions, from about '74 on, resulting in the full blown outer planes system and such. Much of what I did with the elemental planes was fill in gaps.The idea was that they should be distinctive, real feeling, textured things.Hope that helps.Ethesis wrote:I'm mailing Paul my orange cover copy of Palace of the Porno Princess (ok, bad joke) and some misc. stuff one keeps around for 1E players and my first printing Player's Handbook.Good grief, no another orange B3. Seems like Paul's stocking up on those from the old timers... (Are signatures optional on the other items? )
Ethesis wrote:..."2-3 years unanswered questions from TSR... Eventually I wrote Gary at home. Seems he never had received any of my letters.... As I'm back in contact with Gary..."I
Ethesis wrote:Last post, then I'm off to the storage unit, I've already missed getting to the post office by responding
Ethesis wrote:I also tried to send him everything (in terms of notes) other than RQ related material. RQ doesn't really seem to grab anyone on the Acaeum and it bores Paul (he is very polite, but it doesn't stir any passion in him -- not that I blame him. Otherwise I'd be sending him misc. correspondence and stuff from that era).
Ethesis wrote:I really appreciate all that he has done and if I find any more things, plan to send them to him. (No, not my third printing OD&D books or supplements, and not the first printing DMG -- those I'm keeping as a part of my life).
Ethesis wrote:Now, if I can only get Paul Jacquays and Sandy to send stuff to Paul, then you would see some auctions.
stormber wrote:Ethesis wrote:I also tried to send him everything (in terms of notes) other than RQ related material. RQ doesn't really seem to grab anyone on the Acaeum and it bores Paul (he is very polite, but it doesn't stir any passion in him -- not that I blame him. Otherwise I'd be sending him misc. correspondence and stuff from that era). What you have RuneQuest stuff? I love RuneQuest stuff.
