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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:57 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8672

<clip>
"I ran it as a campaign element or part, not as the heart of the campaign, if that makes sense. It made for a great brooding background element.

The backstory is that there was a city of sorcerers, someone brought the revenaunt in, they had a war and the city kicked loose from reality, taking the revenaunt with it. One of those "we had to destroy the city in order to save it" sort of things."
</clip>

*g* (*grins*). That's the one; per the "since you're now referring to material the board hasn't even seen, yet..." note at the top of the previous page.

I wish I had much more backstory to that campaign. :(
Input from Steve and the playtesters would certainly be required for that aspect, but it nestles in very neatly in the context of his ongoing development work on the Planes.

As noted before, Elaikases was Steve's early character who effectively went immortal. Gary certainly didn't approve of that "Monty Haul" (sic.) approach; and given his comments on 3e probably still doesn't!
Anyhow; Elaikases got woven in a bit into the mythology and later (*coughs* 1977) developments... kinda an overlayer on top of his original "universe" design concepts, anyhow.

Rather than old Dragons, you really need old A&Es/TWHs.
Alas, every time I made an offer to Frank for his, Paul upped it.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:07 pm 
 

Heh, heh... Just read some of Steve's comments on the previous page...

Dragonsfoot • Information
<clip>
Heck, had TSR printed the Elemental Planes and had it done as well as the hardback gods book, it would have been $50k a month for a year or so in royalties ... that would have been real money.
</clip>

Trouble being (IMHO) by the time Steve got back in touch with Gary, the universe had kinda moved on a bit, and was already being firmed up to a somewhat different "design spec".
Was just my "gut feel", anyhow...

The port to his "Shattered Norns"/RQ setting is kinda cute Shifting City -- Scenarios for Runequest Characters destined for Heroquesting .
Still have a very few bits and bobs from that here. (In addition to a few more RQ cults beyond those which were published in the Dungeoneer, I think).

  

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:07 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Rather than old Dragons, you really need old A&Es/TWHs.

I don't know these? Expand please. :?:


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:16 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Rather than old Dragons, you really need old A&Es/TWHs.

I don't know these? Expand please. :?:

A&E = Alarums & Excursions
TWH = The Wild Hunt

Luckily Mike <improvstone> has a few, but am certainly there is more "stuff" to be dug out of those.
(Would still probably be best to timeframe it into Steve's 1976-8 "universe", though; his earlier and later ideas diverge somewhat from those, although he definitely is re-using quite a few earlier classes/"monsters"/etc.).

===

Heh. So would you and others have happily let me use acryonyms in other threads, without clarification? e.g.
NFB = News From Bree
TC = Trollcrusher
UO = Underworld Oracle
O&W = Owl & Weasel
TBH = The Beholder
etc. ;)

  

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:10 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:A&E = Alarums & Excursions
TWH = The Wild Hunt
NFB = News From Bree
TC = Trollcrusher
UO = Underworld Oracle
O&W = Owl & Weasel
TBH = The Beholder

From that entire list, 'Owl & Weasel' and 'The Beholder' are the only ones I've ever heard of. I think I've seen issues of 'The Beholder' on eBay once or twice (Are they D&D, Runequest, Cthulhu?). I've never seen an 'Owl & Weasel', although I know it to be the forerunner to White Dwarf, and I've never even heard of the others. :?:


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:26 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Howdy All,


Ralf Toth wrote:Surely the success of the Sutherland auctions might have raised an eyebrow or two? My wild guess is that Mr Sutherland recommended the "Collectors Trove" to Mr Marsh...

Anyway, it's great to see all these old original manuscripts and stuff on eBay. Good luck with the auctions, Paul!


Thanks Ralf. One TSR alum heard that I was a "Grand Master of Collecting" :wink: and decided to drop me an email! :lol:

Actually, he was talking about the materials online and I emailed him to ask if he'd like me to auction off his collection. I think he was pretty suprised that I was able to organize the collection into so many lots. I think Steve inititally thought the Planes Stuff would all be in one lot.

I have a few other TSR alum that are also calling on me to auction their collections. Hopefully, I'll be able to bring these to you folks after Christmas.


Futures Bright,

Paul


Paul pretty much has it right.  I had finally decided to just get rid of everything and give up on every seeing it published and was going to give some of it away and throw the rest of it out when a good friend suggested that I trust "storm beard" and I'm glad I did.


Regards,



Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:27 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Improvstone wrote:

I might just produce a hard back ... Maybe I will even commision the original D&D artists ... I really hate the look and feel of the 3ed stuff. Give me Elmore, Easley, Parkinson any day!


If you're serious Mike and want a partner I'd publish it with you. Credit and royalties would have to go to Steven and other's for sure, anything extra we could spend on more D&D stuff :D . The artists you mentioned are some of my favorites too; maybe we could even find an older unpublished piece of art to go with the "lost manuscript" it would be a nice tie in. Just think a new 1st edition AD&D hardback rulebook with era cover art! 8O  8O  8O


Nothing would make me happier.


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Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:OK; a little assistance from owners of early A&Es and TWHs would be appreciated! 8)
*
I'm fairly sure the various pages from the two zine sets mentioned below in the Steve Marsh auction were not included in one of the above, for the reasons stated (more certain of the first).
If anyone knows otherwise, plz let me know :)

....

aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?
*


You know how it is, bury a couple of kids and it can take the wind out of your sails for a while.  Bury a third and ...

I got rid of most of my A&Es and TWHs and saved a page here, a page there.

As a result, much of what I had was scattered.

In addition, I did the Phoenix rules Sean Summers published and the name part of the Star Falcons half that Mike Gunderloy did (he did the high level spells, I did some more context and background for them in response to some comments).


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Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:37 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:aside: is Steve's online quote "Do I plan to start work again:? Probably not, but you are welcome to pick up where I left off." an open invitation to approach re. his other material, too?


I asked similar questions on Dragonfoot and Pied Piper. I took it to mean that he was happy to see his early works developed, and would give latitude and maybe support to those taking the time to do so. I believe this would extend to re-interpretation/incorporation of his other early work in so far as they contribute to the job in hand. Steve indicated a preference to updating those works to 1E AD&D, and gave free rein provided it were a benevolent undertaking. I imagine if it were a commercial project Steve would be reasonable, but would wish to exercise some of his IP rights for a share in royalies.

That was my take on our discussions re. City of the Revenaunt.


Very accurate!


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Stephen

  

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 5:54 pm 
 

Thanks for stopping by, Steve.

I know I've asked similar questions over on the Pied Piper threads, but this is where the hardcore collectors congregate, and the discussions here are very productive.

Would you mind clarifying the development of the City of the Revenaunt for me, as best you can recall it?

We are trying to outline the chronology of key stages in the development of your universe (Cupric Texts, Revenaunt, Planes of Existance).

For my part, I would like to establish when the D&D editing of Revenaunt took place, and whether it was TSR or Judges Guild (seeking TSR approval) that provided the editorial (I'm still hunting Gary's handwriting for comparison).



For David's (harami2000) benefit I append the following:

mbassoc2003 wrote:Thanks, Steve.

The notes would appear to be editorial notes with a view to bringing the scenario into line with the D&D system.

The first note with regard to the 'house rules' reads 'Material for use with D&D must be at least close to the D&D system. Granted, everybody runs things their own way, but those choices should be left up to them....'

Followed by a note on the following page to 'Please put all plugs and recommendations at the back of the publication.'

And comments seeking clarification, 'Further explanation needed.' and notes on the D&D rules system, 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.' and, 'Note that saving throws are applicable.'

It would appear that the scenario was editted at some point, maybe by TSR or maybe by Judges Guild (although the rules are D&D specific).

So, I was trying to see if I could piece together a timeline for the development of the scenario.

At present it would appear to have been written in 1977 and early '78, playtested and amended late in '78 and 1979, and subsequently at some point submitted to TSR for possible publication (or maybe tournament approval?).

Any blanks that you could fill in would be tremendous.

Many thanks,
Ian


[quote="Elaikases
Master of the Marsh"]Sounds right. [/quote]


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:07 pm 
 

Ethesis wrote:Paul pretty much has it right. I had finally decided to just get rid of everything and give up on every seeing it published and was going to give some of it away and throw the rest of it out when a good friend suggested that I trust "storm beard" and I'm glad I did.

"Storm beard"... *chuckles*.
Strange how these things work out...

Greetings, Stephen!

Thank you for all your work and much appreciated for taking the time to visit this "pocket universe".
Am sure there's a question or five lurking for you here! :P

Best wishes,
David.


Oh, and did you ever get paid for those ideas/contributions of yours which were "butchered" in their presented forms in Blackmoor, Eldritch and the Strategic Review? Hrr.....

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:19 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The copy I have of City of the Revenaunt is a photocopy of an original manuscript that Steve used to DM with, and has notes and adjustments to it in a variety of different pens.

Steve indicated that he DM'd this City as a tournament module, and as a feature City within his ongoing campaign during '78 and'79. I believe the original manuscript was passed to Mayfair Games along with a copy of the Planes of Existance manuscript (reworked), just prior to them folding. From there the original works disappear.

Does anyone know of any other existing copies of the City of the Revenaunt or Planes of Existance manusripts, either in whole or in part?

Steve recalls running the City as a tournament module in '78 or '79, but cannot recall where, or any of the players (although I have the PC sheets). Has anyone any recollection of playing or watching this module?


I was corresponding steadily with Gary through going on a mission for the LDS Church and returning to school through going to work at TSR for the summer of 1980.  I wasn't <i>definitely out of touch with Gary</i> ...

I admit, after Gary ended up in Hollywood and the Blumes took over, I was more than a little out of touch with TSR.  I was going to start working for TSR in 1982 and they sent me a rather nasty letter withdrawing that employment offer.

The original Planes of Reality documents are still missing.  I was hoping to find them in storage or to get them back from Mayfair.  So far I've had no luck.  One more copy of Mistworld has surfaced.  I'm mailing Paul my orange cover copy of Palace of the Porno Princess (ok, bad joke) and some misc. stuff one keeps around for 1E players and my first printing Player's Handbook.

If I had only known I would have made people sign more stuff ;)


Regards,



Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:24 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:We are trying to outline the chronology of key stages in the development of your universe (Cupric Texts, Revenaunt, Planes of Existance).

(with or without the pre-D&D element?)

mbassoc2003 wrote:For my part, I would like to establish when the D&D editing of Revenaunt took place, and whether it was TSR or Judges Guild (seeking TSR approval) that provided the editorial (I'm still hunting Gary's handwriting for comparison).

Good luck, Ian. Signatures only here, alas.

mbassoc2003 wrote:It would appear that the scenario was editted at some point, maybe by TSR or maybe by Judges Guild (although the rules are D&D specific).

Judges Guild were producing D&D material too, so that alone wouldn't have ruled it out, although the timeframe was pointing to TSR in the context you mentioned, of course.

(Got me reading back through the old Dungeoneers as well that did, Steve... :))

mbassoc2003 wrote:And comments seeking clarification, 'Further explanation needed.' and notes on the D&D rules system, 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.' and, 'Note that saving throws are applicable.'

*g*. Elaikases himself was on the "secret" random encounter table for the main campaign. Would that count?

mbassoc2003 wrote:At present it would appear to have been written in 1977 and early '78, playtested and amended late in '78 and 1979, and subsequently at some point submitted to TSR for possible publication (or maybe tournament approval?).

Cupric Text #5 (September 1977)
Image

(I like the nod to Andre Norton for her use of magic colors later on that page, Stephen!).

[quote="Elaikases
Master of the Marsh"]Sounds right. [/quote]
:) Thanks.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:25 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Actually, I find myself somewhat at odds with Paul's method of stripping out the "commercial" material and dumping the rest into a mis-identified lot. (Basic research would have flagged up that it wasn't just A&E, TWH, etc., material).


Well you can't make everyone happy. My main goal was to make Steve some money for his efforts. I took a jumbled collection of papers from Steve and organized them into categories that would make Steve the most amount of money. Sure, I took the more commercial items out, those are the items that engendered bidding competition.

I
I think the collection is in the right hands, everybody's!

Listen, Steve worked at this thing for many, many years, time after time he was disappointed. Promises were made to him that were never kept. He spent a lot of time and energy on this material. The fact is, Steve has spent enough of his life on this (his words), if somone wants to they can take it up from here. It seems you guys are falling right into line - lets see if you can carry it to completion. Steve tried for over 10 years, will you?


Futures Bright,

Paul


I owe Paul a lot.  BTW, the Plane of Reality Materials have been in the hands of Mike Gunderloy and Sandy Petersen.  Too bad he got that job with iD (I'm joking, it was the best thing that happened to him in the game industry until he moved to Ensemble).

<i>(If it was previously complete to such a degree, then surely it would have been sent to Gunderloy, rather than the (Water,) Air, Earth order which seems apparent?) </i>

Well, Water made it into Blackmoor.  Air was just fun, and needed to be done.  Earth you can see parts of, on and off, with notes (and a draft on a floppy disk that Paul is still trying to recover).  Ice I did because it was fun and Fire I reworked several times, in what I hoped would be a "complete" model -- places where fire overlaps normal reality, a place that is half fire, but still recognizable (Flame Hawk, for example) and a raw, elemental themed plane of great power, but with a real identity.

As I did with a lot of things, once I got them to "proof of concept rough draft" I did some bound copies to distribute to other game designers for input.

Darn, I wish I had kept more.  Somewhere out there is the original Plane of Ice, typed in black and red ink on onion paper ... and a lot clearer to read.


Regards,



Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:28 pm 
 

You see that's it, Gary's involvement has been virtually erased. He lost all of his materials regarding this save his personal letters to Steve and the Plane of Earth materials included in the lot (these he turned over to Steve in 1989). Lorraine Williams ordered Gygax's office sealed and he was never able to recover any of these materials. Including the reworked Starstrands {including the entire pantheon and runic system that went with it} module. Gary and Steve believe the material was simply destroyed. Just like all of that artwork... fools.


You know, when I was told she had burned everything, I used to think that people were being allegorical and that the stuff would show up, kind of like the "elves all live in tree houses" rules an unnamed individual circulated around TSR ... sigh.


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Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:38 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:*wonders again what Gary did with Steve's Elaikases material from back in 1975/6*

I know nothing of the backstory to this discussion. I get the impression that you know more about what I have that I do. Certainly more about the genesis or it, if not the actual text.

Do you have/keep notes on your perceived chronology of those early years (and the interactions between the main players), and would you care to share them?

I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.
dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t= ... highlight=

I'm still searching for the others.


Following Blackmoor, I sent in a "Greyhawk" style set of materials for a supplement.  You know, monsters, character classes, treasures, etc.  Even some rather poor quality illustrations.  That manuscript disappeared.

Not much of a loss, I'm certain.

I started using the Underwood typewriter (hmm, I just threw that out in the last six months) after that point, and my writing gets easier to read.

However <i>and by someone with good spelling and grammer</I> was, in those days, a real clue that it was someone else ...


Regards,



Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:43 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8672

<clip>
"I ran it as a campaign element or part, not as the heart of the campaign, if that makes sense. It made for a great brooding background element.

The backstory is that there was a city of sorcerers, someone brought the revenaunt in, they had a war and the city kicked loose from reality, taking the revenaunt with it. One of those "we had to destroy the city in order to save it" sort of things."
</clip>

*g* (*grins*). That's the one; per the "since you're now referring to material the board hasn't even seen, yet..." note at the top of the previous page.

I wish I had much more backstory to that campaign. :(
Input from Steve and the playtesters would certainly be required for that aspect, but it nestles in very neatly in the context of his ongoing development work on the Planes.

As noted before, Elaikases was Steve's early character who effectively went immortal. Gary certainly didn't approve of that "Monty Haul" (sic.) approach; and given his comments on 3e probably still doesn't!
Anyhow; Elaikases got woven in a bit into the mythology and later (*coughs* 1977) developments... kinda an overlayer on top of his original "universe" design concepts, anyhow.

Rather than old Dragons, you really need old A&Es/TWHs.
Alas, every time I made an offer to Frank for his, Paul upped it.


Elaikases started out, pre-D&D as an immortal ... and was also a character who made it all the way to level 12 or so a campaign with 95% or so attrition run by Sandy P.  

Not sure that counts as Monty Haul, since it is kind of in reverse ;)


Regards,



Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:43 pm 
 

Ethesis wrote:I was corresponding steadily with Gary through going on a mission for the LDS Church and returning to school through going to work at TSR for the summer of 1980. I wasn't <i>definitely out of touch with Gary</i> ...

Stephen,
I was going by your response to Jake Jaquet re. your Dragon subscription whilst you were over at TSR for your summer job (6/80)...

"2-3 years unanswered questions from TSR... Eventually I wrote Gary at home. Seems he never had received any of my letters.... As I'm back in contact with Gary..."

Indicated to me, anyhow, that the Planes back-development was your work rather than planned jointly with Gary throughout the entire period as the auction stated.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5943217039
"Co-written and co-designed with Gary Gygax in the late 70's and early 80's"

That was what I was trying to dig down into, anyhow...

Ethesis wrote:I admit, after Gary ended up in Hollywood

yass...
Ethesis wrote:and the Blumes took over, I was more than a little out of touch with TSR. I was going to start working for TSR in 1982 and they sent me a rather nasty letter withdrawing that employment offer.


Ethesis wrote:The original Planes of Reality documents are still missing. I was hoping to find them in storage or to get them back from Mayfair.

:( So they do still have a lot of stuff then?
Would have hoped for a more positive response to that letter you sent them...

=

Ethesis wrote:I'm mailing Paul my orange cover copy of Palace of the Porno Princess (ok, bad joke) and some misc. stuff one keeps around for 1E players and my first printing Player's Handbook.

Good grief, no another orange B3. Seems like Paul's stocking up on those from the old timers... ;)

(Are signatures optional on the other items? :))

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:01 pm 
 

Ethesis wrote:Elaikases started out, pre-D&D as an immortal ... and was also a character who made it all the way to level 12 or so a campaign with 95% or so attrition run by Sandy P.

*grins*. Well done!

Heh; was going by your 3/76 letter to Peggy G, without being aware the Elaikases history and Elaikases in the very next paragraph were different references.
"My character Elaikases got to be too great and so he's retired. He was a walking artifact. If Gary hasn't trashed it all, write him for the history..."

(Had also seen various other references elsewhere which kinda hinted that you'd worked him into your universal backdrop, although that would've been Elaikases(I), then?).

*wonders what happened to all those other dungeons you listed on the next page of that letter to Peggy*

Only have a few later typed pages re. your pre-D&D rune-based system, etc. (suspect the manuscripts are later, too).

Ethesis wrote:Not sure that counts as Monty Haul, since it is kind of in reverse ;)

Almost sounds as deadly as John Huckerby's(?) comment back on the forum about retiring a character who finally made it to level three; no thanks to the DM!

(On the other hand, Gary's solutions to "Monty Haul" in "Tomb of Horrors" was kinda neat, too...).

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:12 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Heh, heh... Just read some of Steve's comments on the previous page...

{clip} ...

The port to his "Shattered Norns"/RQ setting is kinda cute Shifting City -- Scenarios for Runequest Characters destined for Heroquesting .
Still have a very few bits and bobs from that here. (In addition to a few more RQ cults beyond those which were published in the Dungeoneer, I think).


Glad you like it ;)


Heather Stories

Is what got me started writing again -- I was asked to provide some Starstrands background.  The text stories are written to/for a 12 to 16 year old girl as an audience, so they aren't exactly mainstream guy writing, but they do provide a lot of background.


Shattered Norns Home Page and Index

Is what I was working on and playing with to do a campaign setting with porting it all over to RQ (back when I had given up on TSR).

Rough Draft on Nature Spirits

Is a IE style race/character class concept, as OCR ported it over (Gary's comments, being handwritten, did not OCR well).


Simple Rules is a set of rules I was playing with, on and off, since the 1970s.

/////////////////

I did my first FRPG rules in 1968 or 1969 with a setting where three planes intersected.  I was in my first year of High School at Rancho, in Las Vegas, playing board games.

I ended up at BYU.  There I sat down next to Sandy P., noticed him reading the rules to D&D, asked if I could borrow them (btw, I did not know him at the time) and then started playing in his campaign and writing Gary.

That led to contributions in The Strategic Review, Blackmoor, EWizardry, etc.

The deal was TSR would use my ideas and give me publicity and in return they would publish my planes of reality (at least the elemental planes part) the same way Jim Ward got his Gods/Demigods/Shapiros/ books published.

Everything was fine, Gary was kind enough to keep dropping supportive comments and hints, and I was getting ready to sit down and bring it altogether in 1982 when I was supposed to start work at TSR as an inhouse attorney when Gary lost control of TSR and I got told to take a hike.

After that, Judges Guild, Tri-G, Mayfair, etc., etc. all were going to publish the planes (or, in one case, a monster book of new monsters, to test the waters) and folded instead.

Finally it all ended up in a box of notes.

In that time I started college, took two years off to do missionary work, changed colleges, went to law school, got married, had some children, buried three of them, changed jobs, etc. and ended up in Dallas.

When I was contacted by Dragonsfoot.

At that time I decided it was time to just give it up.  I decided to give some of the material to a guy to post on line (a set of documents I never did find) and throw the rest out.

I'm very, very grateful I found Paul instead.

An interruption or two (my house got buglarized and a bunch of stuff was lost) and Paul took the mess off of my hands and got it organized again (instead of in large collections of envelopes labeled by concept and misc. papers, etc.) and into the hands of people who wanted it.

I can't say enough good about Paul.

If I had known ... I'm sure I'd have kept stuff I've lost, would have made more of an effort to put things into computer word processing formats, had more things bound.

I've dug up some stuff for Paul.  Sorry people hate orange, he is getting my orange princess (which I was shocked to find), some fun to play modules (which don't have much value), a collection of books that are nondescript (sure, they are worth ten dollars or so each, but not collectable) and a first edition PH that Gary signed for me before he sent it out.  I'm keeping the DMG (I always had that closer to heart) and my little brown books.  Making one more trip to the storage unit to paw through old boxes, but I think I've sent him everything.

More than willing to comment, as I have time.

And, of course, interested in feedback.

With modest corrections (such as Elaikases and his tower, which was supposed to be an FRPG setting, back when I had a magic system with 20 levels of spells -- but my system was linear while Gary's was log linear.  My 20th level spells weren't the half as powerful as Gary's 9th level spells).


Regards,



Stephen

  
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