Opinions please---darkseraphim: What is the matter?
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:34 pm 

Terminal_Frost wrote:Its not crucial to sellers either.  The Game Emporium among other resellers have proved that point time and time again.  If you have an item people want feedback doesnt matter at all.

Gotta disagree.

Perhaps for some high-ticket items that don't come up on eBay very often, many buyers are willing to plunge ahead regardless of feedback. There's a certain logic to that: after all, the item might not come up again for a year.

Every eBay buyer I know, though (and that's probably 10 or 12 people; I'm not claiming it's hundreds) comparison shops by using both price and feedback as a guide. I do it, too: I've been using eBay since mid-1998 and have placed a bid in ... total guess here ... something like 1,000 or 1,200 auctions. In every one of those cases, I have at least glanced at the seller's feedback before bidding. Conversely, I have passed altogether in certain situations: little or no feedback for the seller, too many recent negatives, a "too good to be true" look or feel, etc.

Really, all The Game Emporium (and other crooks like them) proves are those old lines about "a fool and his money" and "there's one born every minute." The world has no shortage of morons.

That's my .02; your mileage may vary.  :)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:40 pm 

deimos3428 wrote:
draco76 wrote:I don't leave feedback till they do, unless I buy something...

As a buyer, this bothers me greatly, when sellers hold back feedback until I've given mine...that's not how it's supposed to work, folks.   :evil:

Refresher course for those who may have forgotten:

Once you've received payment, you should be leaving me positive feedback.  If you don't get paid, or if payment is delayed, then fine, you still have the auction items, feel free to dump negative feedback on my head.  (I really can't figure out why anyone would ever use neutral.)

Then I wait until my package arrives, and I provide you with your feedback.  I look the item over, and if it is as described, it's positive.  If the item never shows, or it's crumpled into a ball and stuffed into a dirty sock with a stamp on it, or something equally negligent, or whatever, damn right you're getting negative feedback, as you should.  

If there's ever a problem, on either end, you should of course attempt to communicate before leaving your feedback.  In short, don't assume all buyers are jerks, or that we don't care about our feedback...

The problem with this philosophy is it turns into feedback blackmail. Once the seller has give positive feedback (prior to buyer submitting), the seller is screwed. Mr. Buyer decides he wants a break and hold the feedback over the seller's head.

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:47 pm 

aye and this way if there is a problem, the person will probably contact you by email before leaving neg feedback.  If they don't have to worrie about getting a neg feedback for leaving neg, they probably will do just that instead of first trying to work with you.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:55 pm 

but back to more of the topic of this post if I was dark I wouldn't have been so quick to loose Aneoth as a customer....  He appears to be a serious collector, and he said he was SORRY!    what more could a guy ask for?  I'm sorry too dark :P


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:45 am 



I have already admitted that I should have taken a different path in this situation and I have apologized for taking the path I did in at least two different ways and in a least three different posts in this thread. But that is not the reason for this new post.


Many of you have totally missed the point that I did not leave a Negative feedback. It was Neutral feedback!  I will not again explain why I did leave the Neutral feedback, if you want a rehashing, please read the first post.

One thing that bothers me though is that many of you do not even mention neutral feedbacks in your posts that speak about feedbacks. They mostly speak to the problems inherent in leaving Negative feedbacks. So, I want to state once more to all here that this thread evolved from a Neutral feedback that I posted to a sellers feedback on E-Bay, not a Negative feedback.

OK, so exactly what is the definition of Neutral? I am certain that anyone who plays RPG's will know what Neutral is, at least to some extent, but here is how my dictionary defines that word:
1. Not allied with or supporting either side.
2. Belonging to neither side, nor party: On Neutral Ground.
3. Not one thing or another; Indifferent.

There are other descriptions listed as well, having to do with Chemical; Color; Physics; et al. but they are all irrelevant to this discussion.

To make another point, many who have posted to this thread have taken a Neutral stance on this issue; neither being negative, nor being positive to either side. And those have given much useful advice for my learning experience.

However, some have taken a most decidedly Negative stance on giving Negative feedback, or even Neutral feedback, except under the direst circumstance. And others have stated vehemently against leaving anything but positive feedback for any reason, short of complete fraud, or outright theft by the seller, or buyer.

However, even with all of those types of posts above, I have yet to see any statement from that group of posts that convinces me that Neutral feedback is as bad as Negative feedback to either a buyer, or a seller on E-Bay.

I have read no logical reason posted to this thread as to why Neutral Feedback should be deemed by any buyer, or seller as a Negative reason for trusting (or not trusting) a buyer, or a seller. In fact, normally the only feedbacks I view at all are Negatives. I do not even read most of the Positives, and I normally skim past the neutrals. Although since leaving the one that this thread is about, I have gone back and read many now, just to help me understand what others might think about leaving Neutral Feedback.

Some here have stated that neutral feedbacks could slow down, or even ruin a sellers business. Yet I remain unconvinced....

Those who said as much mostly seem to me to be much too nervous about feedback, especially Neutral feedback. To go ballistic and loose ones professionalism over something as seemingly innocuous as neutral feedback seems completely foreign to me.

Those that speak against neutral feedback and about how it would (Or could) hurt an E-Bay business are almost entirely those who make a business out of selling their wares on E-Bay; Of course that makes perfect sense, even to me, as they have the most to loose if it is true.

But no one has made me understand why neutral is supposed to be a bad thing, rather than a simple note stating that the buyer/seller was not completely wowed by the transaction. If that were so, then why have neutral feedback at all?

Why not simply call it Negative level 1, and Negative level 2? (Pick which one best fits the least attractive level of negative)

Would someone please point me in the right direction here? Or perhaps I have missed someones already excellent explanation. If so, then please tell me which one it was so I can go back and re-read it.


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:05 am 

draco76 wrote:but back to more of the topic of this post if I was dark I wouldn't have been so quick to loose Aneoth as a customer....  He appears to be a serious collector, and he said he was SORRY!    what more could a guy ask for?  I'm sorry too dark :P

Hmm .... Yes he does ... I see his name all too often  :lol:


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:17 pm 

Hi Aneoth -

I'm sure when Ebay first created the feedback system, the intention of the Neutral option was as you said - neither good nor bad, a middle-ground between the two. They probably envisaged that most feedback left would be neutral, or at least there would be as many neutral feedbacks left as positive, with negative being a small fraction of the total.

Unfortunately, the marketplace hasn't used it that way. The market very quickly adapted the process so that all transactions that went according to plan were worthy of positive feedback. There didn't need to be anything spectacular about a transaction, or even mildly noteworthy - if the buyer paid and the goods were dispatched, that was enough - positive would be left.

Neutrals were seen to be a mild form of negative. If something with the transaction left a bad taste in the mouth - an item smelt strongly of smoke, or shipping took 6 weeks, or the condition of the item was markedly different to that stated in the auction - then neutral was left, usually to be followed by a negative from the other person in retaliation. Basically, if the transaction was less than average but you still got what you paid for, leave neutral.

So, neutral is for 'below average' transactions. People look at feedback history and count up the negs and neutrals, and weigh them against the positives. More than one per hundred feedbacks, and the seller is seen as potentially untrustworthy.

Like I said, I'm sure this wasn't ebay's intention - but in practice, thats how its used by the marketplace. It's not logical perhaps, but thats the way it is. Although you ignore the neutrals when assessing a sellers feedback, the fact is that the vast majority of ebayers don't. The marketplace has decided that neutrals equate to below average, and I don't think that will ever change under the current system.

Think of it this way - if 100 sellers each sell the same item, and there is nothing specially good about any of the transactions, so 99 of the buyers leave positive and one leaves a neutral, then basically that neutralled seller is a step behind his 99 competitors - not for reasons of poor service, but because he just happened to luck into a buyer whose idea of feedback was different (not wrong, just different) to all the others.

I don't want to speak on Dark's behalf, but for him its probably not personal - the small loss of business he entails by blocking you is less than the business he'll lose getting more neutrals. He's taken the decision that rather than risk more neutrals, he'd just prefer not to sell to you again, not that you've done anything wrong, but you view feedback differently than most and he knows how the marketplace works.




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Post Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:23 pm 

Aneoth, going by your theory, he would have been justified in leaving you a negative, since he was unhappy with the feedback he received.
This thread should be dead..............

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