Opinions please---darkseraphim: What is the matter?
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:14 am 
 

darkseraphim wrote:Wow, complete condecension.  OK.  I think I'll leave it with "Fuck you, piss off" and end the discussion.


Easy Darky ... I think Aneoth just apologised ....

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:00 am 
 

I'm not going to take sides here, although, for the record, I will say that I've bought from Dark a number of times in the past.

However, I'd like to point out here that there is another culprit: eBay's archaic feedback system.

We've all been there, so I won't belabor the obvious, but eBay's sytem is truly ridiculous. Far too often, it boils down to the question of who will leave feedback first. By definition, anyone who leaves positive feedback first leaves themselves open to attack from a person who has nothing to lose. Also, extending the logic, few people want to be the first to leave a negative, for fear — rightfully — that they will, in turn, be blasted.

What are we left with (in many, but not all, cases):

1. "Feeback stall." Neither party willing to leave the first feedback.
2. "Negative paralysis." Neither party willing to be the first to leave a negative (or neutral), even if it is deserved.

So (not wanting to put too many words in either party's mouth): Anoeth feels like he received an inferior product; Dark, who left feedback first, feels like he has been cut off at the knees with no recourse. Both parties are unhappy and, being reasonable people, wish it had turned out some other way.

Meanhwile, eBay keeps happily chugging along with its idiotic feedback structure. Surely, there must be a better system out there.

P.S.: Guys, I hope you can work it out.

:(

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:38 am 
 

For me, the main point in the discussion so far is that a seller is free to sell to whom he chooses. Irrespective of who was in the wrong in previous dealings, if Dark would rather not deal again with Aneoth, that's his choice. You can debate who is in the right on the previous dealing, but if Dark is more comfortable in not risking a similar misunderstanding happening again, then accept he'd rather lose potential business than take another neutral, and move on. Plenty of other people selling stuff on ebay to choose from.

My personal opinion is that if I was left a neutral for something as subjective (and petty) as whether an item has moderate wear or moderate-heavy wear without being contacted about it first, I'd probably be reluctant to deal with that person again. Nothing personal, I just don't need the agro.

Apart from that, ebay's feedback system does suck. Neutrals are viewed as negatives, for all practical applications.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:13 am 
 

8O  OK, let me get this straight. I just apologized. Not once, but twice on this forum and what is your response?
Expletives. That means curse words darky.

So, I also truly wish you, your business, and your family well and what is your response?
Expletives.

For those with little or no thinking ability, it is a last resort. Vile language is a choice of frustrated desperation. Seek psychological help; as you obviously need it.

With your last response you have just demonstrated your corruption to all who read this thread. Furthermore, you have done so in vivid print, in stunning fashion, and in public.

You will now ban me from your auctions. Yet somehow I remain totally unconcerned. Your bottom feeder attitude will not corrupt me darky.  My dollars will go elsewhere.

Just as there are many other buyers on the E-Bay, so are there many other sellers. You aren't WaltMart, and even they have competition. I am not only unfazed to be barred from your auction sells; after your last post, I now consider it a badge of honor.  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:22 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:With your last response you have just demonstrated your corruption to all who read this thread. Furthermore, you have done so in vivid print, in stunning fashion, and in public.

Well, this thread sure got stupid while I was sleeping.  I'm not going to comment on bids/auctions/whatever, but cursing?  Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and we curse all the time (we don't have guns), but I didn't think it was a big deal.  :D  Completely off topic, I know, but the topic wasn't exactly pro-active, anyway.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:55 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Well, this thread sure got stupid while I was sleeping.  I'm not going to comment on bids/auctions/whatever, but cursing?  Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and we curse all the time (we don't have guns), but I didn't think it was a big deal.  :D  Completely off topic, I know, but the topic wasn't exactly pro-active, anyway.


I agree with the stupid part ... we may all play games but we are also adults  :D

As for guns in Canada .. you have plenty (refer Mike Moore).  You just choose to use them less.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:46 pm 
 

Aneoth, careful. If you wanted to ask advice, you could have done it without putting his name on it in the post. This has left you open to ridicule by exposing someone who is well regarded by the other posters.

Neutral may not seem like a big deal to you, but I assure you, as a frequent seller, I am similarly sensitive to the fact because it makes you look bad for somethign you feel you shouldn't.

He explained to you why he didn't want to do business with you. It may suck, but thems the breaks. Responding in a long, condescending rant was probably the wrong way to go.

This kind of went the wrong way from the start; it would be better to just look for another seller.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:08 pm 
 

OK, let me get this straight. I just apologized. Not once, but twice on this forum and what is your response?

I read through the thread again, and it might just be me but I can't find any apologies. The first post was a long indignant rant about why Dark blocked you, when you hadn't done anything wrong. I couldn't see any 'asking for advice', only a feeling that you were in the right and Dark had sone you some terrible disservice not allowing you to bid.

After Dark explained his reasons (which to me seem quite reasonable), your next long post was chock full of sarcasm. I'm not sure because I don't want to read it again, but I think you enlarged your insults to all members of the forum, not just Dark.

Accept that Dark doesn't want to sell to you, as is his right, and move on.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:28 pm 
 

mdr003 wrote:I read through the thread again, and it might just be me but I can't find any apologies.


Aneoth wrote twice ...

Aneoth wrote:"....I have now seen from the above responses, that I should have contacted you before presenting the feedback. So now I am quite sure that I screwed up. I suspected it before, but I was unsure. Now I know it is so....."


While I don't agree with Aneoth's original approach admiting his mistake was a good step forward.  I also belive Darkys 4 letter response in this forum is uncalled for and it is not a response I expect from a professional and highly respected seller.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:43 pm 
 

Apparently, I must spell this out better.

As was the intent of my previous two posts in this thread; darkseraphim..... I apologize for posting a neutral feedback to your E-Bay account before writing to you about my concerns by E-Mail;

I also apologize for using your On-Line name in the Title of this thread. And, since you and others who have posted here thought that all that I have stated in this thread was sarcasm, I shall also say this once again. That was not my intent.

And I truly did mean what I said before. I hope that you, your business, and your family all thrive and remain happy.

No sarcasm is or was intended in any of this post…

Signed,
Aneoth

I hope this will be taken as my intent should have been taken several posts ago.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:58 pm 
 

mdr003 wrote:...but I think you enlarged your insults to all members of the forum, not just Dark.

Funny, I don't feel as if I've been insulted.

While Aneoth in my mind did not take the best path to the resolution of the situation (always always always avoid discussing things like this in public), he did in fact apologize twice for the error, which means that he in fact has learned what the best path is.

Aneoth, while not exactly guiltless in this, at least had the decency to respect the other members of the forums, darkseraphim included, by refusing to stoop to darkseraphim's level and resorting to cursing.  Now perhaps he misunderstood Aneoth.  I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that.  But nothing, and I mean nothing is a satisfactory excuse for a business owner resorting to curse words.

If you are in the public eye as a representative of your business, it is incumbent upon you to present yourself in the most professional manner possible.  Anything else and you are left with a negative public image that people will remember.  That negative public image will cost customers if not checked at the door.

As an example, I had a business owner on the business' message board (not saying which one) chew me out for attempting to provide support material to a game which at the time was out of print.  I turned right around and told the business owner that if this was the way he treated his customers I was amazed that he had any.  I promptly left that forum and have not returned there in a year and a half.  I haven't bought any of their product either, and never will.

There is an old adage in business that for every good experience by a customer, he tells one of his friends, and that friend tells another friend.  For every bad experience though, he tells ten, and those ten tell ten of their friends.  How many of Aneoth's friends who don't visit The Acaeum but do purchase online will he tell not to shop with darkseraphim?  How many will I tell, because I will not do business with people who fail to show the customer basic levels of decency and respect?



  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:14 pm 
 

All right, close this soap opera. All points have been made and read, all opinions voiced. Please don't make this a Frank thread of old, guys.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:34 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:All right, close this soap opera. All points have been made and read, all opinions voiced. Please don't make this a Frank thread of old, guys.


Not so fast!  I want my name on this thread too.

Wow!  Away from the forum for a couple of days and this kicks off.  8O

darkseraphim wrote:Wow, complete condecension.  OK.  I think I'll leave it with "Fuck you, piss off" and end the discussion.


However, taken out of context, this post gave me the biggest laugh in ages.  But I do enjoy hearing/reading people swearing.

Personally, I have a long list of blocked bidders.  Most of them are people who have gone out of their way to criticise one of my auction listings rather than just f***ing off and bidding on another auction.  And similarly there are plenty of sellers who I would not buy from (unless they had listed something in the wrong category with a low BIN of course  :wink: I'm easily bought on matters of no importance)

I agree that neutral=negative as far as most are concerned.  Whereas neutral or no feedback should be the norm.  Only if someone does something out of the ordinary should they deserve positive or negative.  And ordinarily people pay in good time and goods are packed well and sent in good time.  But the feedback dice were cast long before I started using eBay and I went the same way before I realised that it didn't work.

How I've managed to avoid any neutrals/negatives in that time is beyond me.  But I now have an illogical fear of them and go out of my way to avoid them.  I'm sure I'll get one as soon as someting goes missing in the post and the seller holds me responsible.

Maybe people should have to pay to leave +ve/-ve feedback.  OK, bad idea.  eBay make far too much money already.

Please note that this was all written without the use of <sarcasm></sarcasm> or <condescend></condescend>

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Handbags away now please.
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:51 am 
 

I always hear everyone saying "The Feedback system doesn't work" or something similar.

Personally, I have never had a problem with it - I leave feedback for my buyers first (unless they happen to beat me to it).  I still have 100% positive and am over 1000 on my rating. (not too modest of me there. . . :roll: )  

Like johnhuck, I have some irrational fear of receiving a negative.

Still, it just occured to me that the easiest way to "fix" the feedback system would be to keep all feedback in a "hidden Limbo" until both parties submit it.

This would ensure that you could safely leave negative feedback for a seller or buyer without fear of retaliation.  Each person would be more likely to leave honest feedback.  Of course, it would have to be inclusive of all "pending" feedback between the buyer/seller so that if there are multiple purchases, no feedback is officially displayed or recorded until ALL feedback is left.  (If one person simply doesn't leave feedback: After a waiting period of say 60 or 90 days the feedback left by one individual becomes permanent and the other loses the option to leave feedback - thereby preventing someone from avoiding negs by simply never leaving their own feedback).

What do you think?  Would that improve the system?  Seems easy enough and eBay could implement it without changing any current feedback or overhauling the whole system (which they would never do).


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:50 pm 
 

Here is the problem with ebay's feedback system.

At this very moment, I have some A-hole (international) who refuses to pay actual shipping charges to his location. It is $9 for GPM and he will only pay $7. The auction quotes to Europe at $11 GPM in general, so he already paying less than quoted.

We all know where this is going. I report him to ebay as a nonpaying buyer and he negs me. Sure, I can neg him back, but I could give two shits about his feedback rating, I care about mine.

Like Breach, I always leave feedback for my buyers first. Rarely do I have a problem - though I do have two neutrals from some idiot.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:09 pm 
 

The feedback system is almost slanted to hurt sellers. Most people who only buy have much less feedback, and generally it doesn't hurt them in bidding on general items, because as long as they pay for it, your cool. Furthermore, they can sacrifice a negative that will give them 1 out of 10 bad to leave you a negative for 1 out of 300 bad; then you look like the ass when selling, because they don't care what happens, but you do.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:27 pm 
 

I don't leave feedback till they do, unless I buy something...

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:49 pm 
 

Shingen wrote:The feedback system is almost slanted to hurt sellers. Most people who only buy have much less feedback, and generally it doesn't hurt them in bidding on general items, because as long as they pay for it, your cool. Furthermore, they can sacrifice a negative that will give them 1 out of 10 bad to leave you a negative for 1 out of 300 bad; then you look like the ass when selling, because they don't care what happens, but you do.


Too true. As far as feedback goes, there's almost nothing to lose if you're primarily a buyer. A lot of sellers talk tough about screening, blocking, or banning new, less-than-10 rating (or 20 or whatever), or "excessive negative" buyers, but few actually follow through. Especially volume sellers — who has the time to track every bid they're receiving? It's nice to have a long string of positives if you're a buyer, but hardly necessary.

On the other hand — as has been pointed out previously — feedback can be crucial to a seller. The combination of the actual rating, the percentage of positives, and the comments themselves are all things that wary potential buyers examine. Reputation is everything in a marketplace where buyer and seller never actually meet in the same physical space.

Thus, I can kind of see Dark's point: that non-positive feedback must have felt like a sneak attack. It has the potential to damage his reputation. Maybe I'm not too wild about the language or tone he chose to use in his most recent post, but I do understand the sentiment.

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:07 pm 
 

Its not crucial to sellers either.  The Game Emporium among other resellers have proved that point time and time again.  If you have an item people want feedback doesnt matter at all.

Xaxaxe wrote:
Shingen wrote:The feedback system is almost slanted to hurt sellers. Most people who only buy have much less feedback, and generally it doesn't hurt them in bidding on general items, because as long as they pay for it, your cool. Furthermore, they can sacrifice a negative that will give them 1 out of 10 bad to leave you a negative for 1 out of 300 bad; then you look like the ass when selling, because they don't care what happens, but you do.


Too true. As far as feedback goes, there's almost nothing to lose if you're primarily a buyer. A lot of sellers talk tough about screening, blocking, or banning new, less-than-10 rating (or 20 or whatever), or "excessive negative" buyers, but few actually follow through. Especially volume sellers — who has the time to track every bid they're receiving? It's nice to have a long string of positives if you're a buyer, but hardly necessary.

On the other hand — as has been pointed out previously — feedback can be crucial to a seller. The combination of the actual rating, the percentage of positives, and the comments themselves are all things that wary potential buyers examine. Reputation is everything in a marketplace where buyer and seller never actually meet in the same physical space.

Thus, I can kind of see Dark's point: that non-positive feedback must have felt like a sneak attack. It has the potential to damage his reputation. Maybe I'm not too wild about the language or tone he chose to use in his most recent post, but I do understand the sentiment.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:24 pm 
 

draco76 wrote:I don't leave feedback till they do, unless I buy something...

As a buyer, this bothers me greatly, when sellers hold back feedback until I've given mine...that's not how it's supposed to work, folks.   :evil:

Refresher course for those who may have forgotten:

Once you've received payment, you should be leaving me positive feedback.  If you don't get paid, or if payment is delayed, then fine, you still have the auction items, feel free to dump negative feedback on my head.  (I really can't figure out why anyone would ever use neutral.)

Then I wait until my package arrives, and I provide you with your feedback.  I look the item over, and if it is as described, it's positive.  If the item never shows, or it's crumpled into a ball and stuffed into a dirty sock with a stamp on it, or something equally negligent, or whatever, damn right you're getting negative feedback, as you should.  

If there's ever a problem, on either end, you should of course attempt to communicate before leaving your feedback.  In short, don't assume all buyers are jerks, or that we don't care about our feedback...

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