The Holy Grail is up for sale on E-Bay
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 41, 2, 3, 4
Author


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:30 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:Why must Peter re-list his box set?

<clip>

Heh, heh. I didn't say "must"; just referred to eBay "rules" and then added "yeah, no comment!".
(For all they make of contractual law, eBay is pretty abyssmal at keeping their end of the deal to prevent illegal auctions and suchlike).

=

If you remember, I was actually sold a set of 1st print books (well, with that dodgy colored 3rd volume) for $150 off-auction and it was in the post to myself... Only after this, people here threatened to report the seller for making a sale off eBay (for various personal reasons).
As a result, the seller re-auctioned the books when they were returned to him by a fluke in the postal system. (Cost me an extra $258 in the process, albeit didn't grudge the first $100 or so).

Of course, someone else might not be at all fussed about what eBay does to their account.
Fact remains, however, that quite a few people might actually prefer an above-board eBay auction for extra security; even if it is a "rearranged"/pre-agreed auction with a set BIN price.
Yes, all of this is Peter's call. Nice position to find oneself in :)

=

(oh; and as an aside, I'm very glad the auction didn't start low (like $9.99!) and end low with an agreed off-auction sale, had Peter not done his research! Am well aware that many people here would've done the deal and run... and quite possibly re-sold the next week).


<comments on "value" to follow, fwiw... 0.002 cents, at best>

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:18 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:I would therefore value the incomplete box set at or about the grade of Very Good to Excellent, based on the Acaeums lists.  There is no way I could place a value anywhere near the top listed value shown on that list for recent sales of similar Box Sets. Those were to my knowledge ALL complete sets.

So, after this long-winded script, what is my final conclusion?
I am afraid that the set that you have is quite unfortunately, incomplete. And that is truly tragic.  :cry:  As I was perfectly willing to accept the wrath of my wife and put myself to the curb with no roof over my balding head for a First Print Woody.

Tragically, your set is much like the set of Wood Grain Set Books with NO box at all, which sold on E-Bay (Along with several other rare books included in the auction) for less than $150 less than a month ago. I know, I was bidding on it just for the woody books alone. Someone here (I forget who) can attest to this as he won the auction by sniping me!

No box = No box set.  :!:
Only two books with a box = No box set.  :!:

There you go.... my 2 coppers worth....

OK....
My take, and just a personal opinion since Peter asked for these.

I know there are investors, resellers, wealthy individuals and tax-deductable orgs (*grr*) who might state a higher value or be "able to afford" more, for obvious reasons.

Best to start on firm foundations, however...

- The highest obtained for an EX/M 2nd print set is $850, less than a year ago. Probably hasn't declined in "value" since then.
- The 2nd print volume 3 in this set has a fault. This ain't terminal by any stretch of the imagination and would be on the purchaser's "to be replaced" list, anyhow.
- "Added value" for a 1st print box is difficult to attribute since we still have no consensus on woodgrain direction and there's is known degree of "mix and match" randomness, anyhow (as with per Acaeum notes and my recent comment on 4th- prints Post research tidbits here ).
At best(?), 1st and (most) 2nd prints do appear to have smaller box labels.

Working upwards...

- Paul's 1st print (EX/NM; although the box /appears/ to be better) got caught up in last-minute bidding and last-second manual and automatic sniping (see the auction history, above). The end result was higher than expected and the support level appears to be around $1,800, albeit I'm sure there are other snipes that didn't make it onto the system).
- Some people still state that the odd colored 3rd volume in Paul's set deserves a scarcity premium. Others that it may be a reprint or other anomoly. As discussed before...

Looking at The Acaeum estimates, auction histories and by comparison with other collecting fields it is clear that values increase strongly towards (and for) the first prints and fairly strongly towards mint condition; both factors combining to an extent.
Moreso, the premium for "getting everything together" is clearly there, hence my attempted disaggregations on Original TSR Box Sets w/ no box, what can be expected? which no-one has yet denounced. (And they are a reasonable first-cut match to the realisations).

Resistors...
- The set ain't worth top-dollar premiums (above) until someone gives up a NM 1st print volume 3.
- It /should/ be easier to obtain such a book, than an appropriate box, even though the former would be (1/1,000) whereas the latter is still (1/most of 3,000?), since books are usuall found in higher grading.
- However, in obtaining, it is likely that another set would be "destroyed".

Finger-in-the-air...

1) On component parts (using numbers from my other post)...
- Box (presuming OK on the side, too): EX: $600 (or a bit higher).
- Books; factoring in minor damage to vol. 3: EX-EX+; (1st print; $500, 2nd print; $250)-- averaging out (oh the horror of doing so! *g*): $425.
= $1,025-1,050.
Couldn't allocate a "well matched set" premium on the basis of 1st or 2nd print quotes, but possibly a lesser figure (+10-15%) to allow for good appearance and potential.
= $1,150-1,200, say.

2) On realisations (per above)...
- 2nd print (per before) - $850 (and forgiving the current volume 3 that minor defect).
- 1st print (with allowances for the nature of high bidding on "one offs") - $1,800, say, based on "support level".
... Taking a "stab in the dark", difficulty in completing the set without damaging others and making allowances for weighting towards volume 1 might yield $1,200, say. (Science, what science?).

Anyhow... add in further presumptions.
(BIN "carrot"; +10% say = $1,250-$1,325 by method 1; $1,300-$1,350 by method 2... possibly a bit more).
(aside: even if not BIN'd, the current strength of foreign currencies could add 10% or more if the auction was opened to, or made easier for, such buyers).

...Plus of course presumption regarding no dramatic paradigm shift in bidding/valuation (difficult to tell just now!), "one off" sale effect, or other people being able to bid higher for various reasons such as tax breaks or being able to resell at collectors auctions or via private sales lists.
i.e. This needn't be a self-fulfilling prophecy, just an attempt to /estimate/ an extremely difficult item in a somewhat niche market with a limited number of buyers.

To sum up the above: $1,025 (lower base estimate) ranging to mid $1,300s (allowing for BIN offers and suchlike)

Anyone care to rip this to shreds, now? ;)

Regards,
David.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5685
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 26, 2022
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:26 pm 
 

Aneoth is right. Verbose, but right.
Except in one thing: First Print values don't apply to it, since it is incomplete. If I had a 1st print PHB, and 1/3 of the pages had been removed and replaced with pages from a 5th print, it is no longer a 1st print PHB. So the values don't apply.
Ebay? Fuck eBay. He listed it, and now it isn't listed. If he had ended the listing to sell it to someone, that's one thing. But he didn't. He's free to sell it to whomever he wants.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:32 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Aneoth is right. Verbose, but right.

Heh, you thought <aneoth> was verbose.
I'd better go hide, Frank! ;)

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:39 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Except in one thing: First Print values don't apply to it, since it is incomplete. If I had a 1st print PHB, and 1/3 of the pages had been removed and replaced with pages from a 5th print, it is no longer a 1st print PHB. So the values don't apply.

You do have a point, Frank.
A hardline approach might suggest that it's not even worth as much as a complete 2nd printing, since it isn't even one of those!

I was trying to allow for the likelihood (90%+) that there are a sufficient number of people who would adopt a more optimistic outlook and bid against each other on the basis of such.

  


Prolific Collector
Valuation Board

Posts: 681
Joined: Oct 13, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 29, 2022
Location: Denver, CO

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:51 pm 
 

Well, I think we've successfully terrified every casual user out there into never offering their woodgrain finds on eBay.
:lol:

It sounds like the seller took the high road, accepting all criticism and education as it came.  Whatever he wants to do with it now is up to him.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:07 pm 
 

lol my $20 offer stands :P

I need a cheap wood grain :-)

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 5029
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2017
Location: Texas

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:09 pm 
 

And my $40 offer also still stands...
Three of four parts of a First Woody is better than NO parts of a First Woody. :)

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 5029
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2017
Location: Texas

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:25 pm 
 

Aneoth wrote:

"Tragically, your set is much like the set of Wood Grain Set Books with NO box at all, which sold on E-Bay (Along with several other rare books included in the auction) for less than $150 less than a month ago. I know, I was bidding on it just for the woody books alone. Someone here (I forget who) can attest to this as he won the auction by sniping me!"

I was not purposefully inferring with that wording that Peter's partial box set is not worth much more than the $150 paid for that Woody box set with no box.

I actually feel that Peter's partial set is worth more than the ‘Poor to Excellent' Condition range listed on the Acaeum for a First Print of the woody set.

Perhaps it should get near $1200, as harami puts forth with his mathematics gymnastics, but I would truly be hard pressed to offer that much myself, especially knowing the facts that I now know. I could not justify doing that to myself, much less to the wife, even though I was ready to pay far more than that for what was then thought to be a complete first print woody.

More is the pity that, as I believe that a complete First Print Wood Grain Box Set is even scarcer than anyone here realizes.

  


Active Collector

Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 27, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2013

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:49 pm 
 

Hey guys,
    I thank you for the discussion. This is a great little education on my set. Whatever I choose to do in the future, this is just the kind of discussion I need to see in order to make an iformed decision. Who knew that the direction of printed woodgrain would lead to such confusion?

You know, I used to spend my summers in Delavan, Wisconsin, which is the next town over from Lake Geneva. Now I wish that I spent more time going to garage sales and such. Perhaps I would have ended up with a stack of these sets to hand out to you all for helping me! Maybe I'll just finish that time machine that I am working on... err...  :lol:

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5685
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 26, 2022
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:54 pm 
 

Considering the fact that it would be easily damaged, and that 99% of people who bought one wouldn't shrink/poly it like they would a tourney mod (since when the Brownie came out, D&D was unheard of), I would suspect that a decent condition one would be VERY rare. Makes Scott's $700 snag a candidate for Best of the Year.
To be honest, I personally would have no interest in paying over $200 or so for it. UNLESS I owned a First print book 3. A wise collector would snag this set, and hunt for #3, since the number of first print #3 booklets is definitely going to be higher than the number of boxes. Look at it this way. It's 1977, you own a 1st woody. You drunkenly step on the box during a heavy-hitting Saturday night. The box would get tossed, and you'd keep the books, no? And since the boxes are relatively easily damaged, AND since the box itself has no useable reference material, most people would have considered it expendable compared to the contents. For example, if you take all the White box auctions this year (say 80 for testing purposes), and take all the unboxed booklet auctions (20), that would mean statistically that 20% of all whiteys are now unboxed. Hence, at least 20% of woodies would be unboxed. Assuming 1/2 of the unboxed booklets disappeared, that leaves 100 sets of unboxed books.
Obviously the numbers may be less, or even more, but I think you see my reasoning. Most people KNEW the tourney mods were a treasure. I think relatively few knew that the woodies would be. How many people wrote on their Black Lotuses when Magic the Gathering first came out?


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:11 pm 
 

PeterFedofsky wrote:You know, I used to spend my summers in Delavan, Wisconsin, which is the next town over from Lake Geneva. Now I wish that I spent more time going to garage sales and such. Perhaps I would have ended up with a stack of these sets to hand out to you all for helping me! Maybe I'll just finish that time machine that I am working on... err...  :lol:

*g*. That sounds so familiar, Peter.
Hindsight can be fun in this context!

(oh, btw, was your woodgrain purchase from that same area??)

Compare with...

<clip> from Vote for your favourite TSR Artist

Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:54 pm
.....
That second point is no joke, Pat... I picked up Elrohir's cover art for Dragon #11 last year on ebay (two bids, only). The vendor (still living in Lake Geneva) only knew about the TSR connection because of their locale/connections and had *no* idea that the artwork had been used on the magazine. A couple of quotations from their response made interesting reading in the context of any surviving early artwork, especially by lesser known names... "Thank you for sending the picture, too, as my sister worked for TSR for many years. I asked her if she saved anything good, and she replied, she didn't think it would ever amt. to much. Which was the general attitude in this town at the time. Gary Gygax was considered kind of a local nutcase back then. If we had only known.... I cannot remember the exact address, as it was an estate sale so many years ago, but I do remember close to what year, and that it was bought right here in town. Could've even been sold to me by the original artist, they were all poor back then and sold off a lot of the art for grocery money." Sounds like Lake Geneva would have been a good place to help pay the bills of starving artists, etc., back in those days  :)
....
<end clip>

Heh, heh... Once upon a time... ;)

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:18 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:A wise collector would snag this set, and hunt for #3, since the number of first print #3 booklets is definitely going to be higher than the number of boxes.

Hey, but there were negative comments when I drove that also-sadly-incomplete 1st print up to $583, just over a week ago... ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6932136508
(However, that volume 3 wasn't quite "mint"... and there's the rub: to get a /good/ match with the rest of an EX+ book set still ain't gonna be easy, and that's the only such partial set I can remember seeing for some time...).

Agreed with that comment on books vs. box though, of course!

  


Active Collector

Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 27, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2013

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:18 pm 
 

(oh, btw, was your woodgrain purchase from that same area??)



Oddly enough, it was purchased in Seattle, Washignton.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:24 pm 
 

PeterFedofsky wrote:
(oh, btw, was your woodgrain purchase from that same area??)



Oddly enough, it was purchased in Seattle, Washignton.

*lol*

Well, they could've moved, or else been into wargames previously...
(As per my previous comment that other woodgrains could've made it over to the UK on the back of the TSR connection, rather than as the start of a new range of games in their own right).

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 517
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Last Visit: Nov 07, 2007
Location: windy south florida

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:34 pm 
 

Peter,

 With all the time you've been hanging around here maybe you should consider joining this mad hatter crew of D&D geeks,  :P  keeping the woodie, and begin a lookout for a 1st print Underworld & Wilderness Adventures yourself. Not a bad place to start a collection :D

I've deduced two reasons, and their JMO as to the "condition" of the woodie.

1. the owner lost or somehow destroyed his 1st print Underworld & Wilderness Adventures and obtained a new copy probably by mail order just after the second print. This would explain why the errata sheet is present.

or-

2. the woodie is somekind of hybrid of surplus 1st print and 2nd print books sold when the second print run sold-out mid 1975. There appears to already be two diffrent variants of the 1st print Underworld & Wilderness Adventures according to the Acaum. Maybe there where problems with the print run and a few leftover 1st print Men & Magic and Monsters & Treasures where in surplus until the second print run. This again would explain why the errata sheet is present. Not an uncommon practice I've seen several copies of Tractics in the hands of longtime owners with diffrent printings in box.

I've got the question into Tom Wham former TSR employee at the time. Maybe he will shed some light on the subject.

Mike

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 272
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
Last Visit: Oct 29, 2022
Location: Upstate New York

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:43 pm 
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5930601206

woodbox with more supplements than i care to name...


-dave

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:59 pm 
 

dsaunders wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5930601206

woodbox with more supplements than i care to name...

s'OK. I was chatting with the seller 10 minutes after the auction started. *g*.
There are obvious faults, but the signed Blackmoor is kinda nice... :)

d.

  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 41, 2, 3, 4