The dreaded staple rust
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 21, 2
Author


Prolific Collector

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 11, 2012
Location: Liestal, Switzerland

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:03 pm 
 

Hmm I am not sure but I think with this question I will perhaps make myself the Kaschperle of the forum here :) Anyway here it goes:

Ok now there I have my items in my collection that have staple rust. they happily oxidate away since the day I bought them from either ebay or some 2nd hand bazaar. Now like every other ordinary person I would go and change the staples to new ones, which is quite a trivial task if you still have all ten fingers. Now my question would be: Why do people sell items, sometimes high price items, that still have those rusty staples? I can imagine that some people might say that the item has to be kept in a condition as at the day it was sold but this rust really can do some serious harm to paper over the years. So would my items drop in market value if I would decide to change the staples to new ones?

Hope not too many laugh and someone can shed a light on this issue :D

Greetings
Jupp

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:42 pm 
 

(*points to Rusty Staples , too*)

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 11, 2012
Location: Liestal, Switzerland

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:50 pm 
 

wow, so much for my search-keyword-kung-fu  :x  Thanks alot for the link

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:47 pm 
 

get your grinder out and grind them babys clean  :twisted:

or just replace them, a staple is a staple is a staple.

does anyone know a good way to get out stains from like old tape??
I have a Deities and demigods thats like MINT MINT MINT it had some kid of plastic cover taped on it so its really shinny cover looks bran new but the tape from the cover bs stained the inside front page.  Rest is MINT

  


Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 905
Joined: Apr 09, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 09, 2015
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:38 pm 
 

draco76 wrote:does anyone know a good way to get out stains from like old tape??
I have a Deities and demigods thats like MINT MINT MINT it had some kid of plastic cover taped on it so its really shinny cover looks bran new but the tape from the cover bs stained the inside front page.  Rest is MINT


Do you mean it is laminated?


- "When the going gets weird, the Weird turn pro."

Hunter S. Thompson (July 18, 1937 - Feb 20, 2005)



  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:42 pm 
 

no just had some plastic cover taped over the cover I removed the plastic and the covers very mint, just has small brown stains on inside of cover from the tape, on the white part.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:43 pm 
 

I want to replace the book in my personal collection with this one thats if I can get the small brown stains out... hehe

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1709
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2016
Location: Chandler, AZ

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:09 am 
 

Listen, the simple truth is: if you replace the staples, you have RESTORED the item.  Restored items are worth less (in the case of rare and valuable items, sometimes significantly less).  

Any restoration should be clearly stated in the interests of honesty.

It IS a big deal. . . so make sure you are up front about it.  If a person feels that it isn't significant, then they can bid with that knowledge.  Personally, I would rather have the world's rustiest staples then ones that didn't come with the item in question. . . to me that is what collecting is all about!

This issue applies to all collectibles and antiques. . . I am not just tossing about my own opinion.  If you have an antique desk and replace a handle, you have restored it and a bidder should be aware of that fact.  

Same with anything. . .  :)


"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

  


Sage Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 2721
Joined: Feb 10, 2003
Last Visit: Mar 06, 2021
Location: Olde London Towne

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:05 am 
 

beyondthebreach wrote:Listen, the simple truth is: if you replace the staples, you have RESTORED the item.  Restored items are worth less (in the case of rare and valuable items, sometimes significantly less).


>>>I don't think that that is right all the time - a restored vintage car is worth significantly more than a rusty one.  I could go on with other examples - paintings, furniture, clothing...  e.g. the roof of the sistine chapel was restored recently - you don't hear the pope going "no-you will ruin the value...!"  (I am sure there is a pope joke in there somewhere...)

Yes, obviously I prefer an item with original rust-free staples, hence my constant queries to ebay purveyors of 'mint' items - are the staples rusty???  You could also always sell it and try and get another one with clean staples - but there are times when that is impossible to find.  In that case, if the paper is staining and the rust spreading - get the shiny ones in  :)    (you could always keep the originals in a bag)

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1709
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2016
Location: Chandler, AZ

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:35 am 
 

Okay. . . I'll grant what red_bus just wrote.  I guess I didn't state the "value of restored items" correctly.  What I mean is:  Restored items sell for significantly less than unrestored items in the same condition.  Even lesser grades of unrestored items will usually get more money than one that is restored.

That is why restoration is usually done on more severly damaged items that are good candidates (i.e. color touching, staple replacement, edge trimming, etc.)

An antique desk or car is much easier to restore than an item made of paper and ink.  Still, if you could somehow manage to find an antique car that was in perfect condition and ran great, the value would surely eclipse that of a restored vehicle.

As I see it, what it boils down to is this: Let's say you have a module with rusty staples (even severly rusty staples) and you are forced to keep it and never get a replacement.  You only have two choices:  Do you leave it as is or do you replace the staples?  Both options decrease the value of the item, but everything else remains the same. . . I, personally, would rather keep it as is with rusty staples than replace them.  To me, replacement parts would bring the condition down drastically - rustiness is a common occurence and downgrades the item much less.

Collecting is about finding an item that has survived the years.  Sure, a person may seek out that rare example that has somehow passed through time unscathed, but often we have to accept that certain flaws have crept in.  

Are those flaws acceptable or not?

That is the question a person must ask themselves.  As I see it, there is no need to replace the staples - either you can live with the flaw or you can't. . . in which case it is time to find one to take its place.


"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 11, 2012
Location: Liestal, Switzerland

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:35 am 
 

Thanks alot for the helpful answers despite the two threads that already exist on this board. My stance about this issue is a bit mixed.

Hence I will probably go the following route: I'll eventually remove the staples on my private collection items and change them with new ones (at least on those modules where the staples are more rust than metal), but will keep the old rusty ones in a bag together with the module.

This gives me the chance that if I on one day in the future should decide to sell the item I will put the old staples back in. This gives me the bonus to be able to sell everything in an original state but I can still prevent my modules  from being eaten up by the rust as long as it is in my possession. I think that is a fair thing even for the eventual buyer in the future.

I will probably keep the staples as they are on those items that I will sell anyway.

  


Prolific Collector
Valuation Board

Posts: 682
Joined: Oct 13, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 13, 2019
Location: Denver, CO

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:35 am 
 

This is a bit off-topic, but when buying, I favor personal collections of long standing that come from a dry climate.  Collections from Colorado and Arizona, for example, tend to have fewer problems with rust, mold, mildew, fading, and paper yellowing than collections bought from Miami or New Orleans or Seattle.  My solution for staple rust is simple - if you can tell the items are of long standing in one collection and they're regional, dramatically reduce the chances that your items will have these problems by favoring dry climates over wet.  Failing that, I leave the staples as is.  I'm against restoration - although that does get into the whole thorny antique vs. collectible issue.

  


Active Collector

Posts: 58
Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Last Visit: Feb 15, 2007

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:23 pm 
 

Again - my own opinion (based on no first hand experience) is that the best approach for those who want to 'replace' them is to remove the original staples, remove the rust from those original staples through electrolysis and then replace those staples.

This results in the product having its original staples while removing the rust.   It is akin (to return to the furniture/antique car analogies) refinishing with the original colors/ stains - a real purist would rather have the piece in its unrestored glory - but most people would rather have it in the restored form.  (And because the rust leads to more rust and damage a case can be made for purists preferring this approach as well).

But I've never tried it.

Carl

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:21 pm 
 

if you can't tell something has been restored it doesn't matter, simple truth.

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:34 pm 
 

draco76 wrote:if you can't tell something has been restored it doesn't matter, simple truth.

You're absolutely right, draco, but that's the crux of the argument.  By restoring the item, you run the risk of not doing the restoration job quite perfectly enough, and an astute collector might detect it.  And once discovered, the value will plummet, especially if you indicated previously that it was in original/unrestored condition, as your credibility as a seller goes out the window.  :wink:

I'm off to "pre-rust" my 3rd edition books now...wait they don't have staples.  Oh well.

 YIM  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 628
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2007
Location: Illinois

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:42 pm 
 

I've done it before :-) I used stables from B2's to replace rusty stables in modules in my personal collection.  Stuff i'm going to resell i don't even bother messing with.  Waste of time, them the person who buys the module replace his own damn [email protected]

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1709
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2016
Location: Chandler, AZ

Post Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:39 pm 
 

draco76 wrote:if you can't tell something has been restored it doesn't matter, simple truth.


That's what happened with comics. . . and then CGC came along and showed that it is really fairly easy for a professional organization with the proper resources to discover any restoration done.

Black light, high powered magnification and other tools I am not aware of.  In any case, many collector's have been dismayed to discover that their high grade comic has a fraction of the value as it was restored (even minor "color touches" in tiny spots counts asrestoration.

Furthermore, if a person were to not mention restoration that they knew about, it would be dishonest and deceptive.


"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 11, 2012
Location: Liestal, Switzerland

Post Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:18 am 
 

Well perhaps there should be a differentiation between a collection you intend to sell in the future and a collection you intend to keep for as long as the paper is not falling apart. The latter one would be a good canditate, in my opinion, for things like staple changing or other more complicated measures of restauration. In the end all a collector wants to have is a collection he is able to maintain in a perfect state for as long as possible. And if that means he has to do some restauration on his items then it would be a fair thing for him to do so.

But if you intend to collect items with reselling in your mind then I think the argument that things should be left unchanged it totally valid. Because you never know how people would react if you would sell them restaurated items. Well you can always tell them in advance, in fact you should do so, but it would be stupid to change things if you know that the price would drop because of that.

So again, thanks alot for the great feeback here. It really helps me to understand the in-and-out of collecting :)

Jupp

  


Prolific Collector
Valuation Board

Posts: 682
Joined: Oct 13, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 13, 2019
Location: Denver, CO

Post Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:26 pm 
 

I would recommend against restoration unless you are certain that you will never sell the item.  I've heard many times from people who swear they'll never get out of the hobby and never sell so-and-so, but the only collector I've ever known who never seems to completely sell out at some time is Frank Mentzer.
:P

Everyone else, please consider this about restoration - if this hobby keeps growing over the decades and keeps gaining authority (and it likely will, as 2nd AD&D and 3.0 devotees age and gain income), standards of valuation are going to become more stringent.  Common items won't be affected, but rare items will.  Restoration detection techniques are becoming cheaper and more advanced all the time.  And if the market decides that a restored item is worth 50% less than grade, what are you going to do when it's time to sell?  You'll either have to lie when you sell, and risk your reputation, or admit the restoration and face potential devaluation.

Now you may say I'm paranoid, that the hobby will never grow that much, that we're all growing older and the younger generation has no interest, etc.  But my research, contacts, and home business say otherwise, so I think if you're really invested, you should plan for the future - even if you're just going to pass this stuff on to your kids.  People 6 years ago said the hobby was dying, then the Acaeum came along.  What will things be like in 15 years, when items are much rarer and most of us have more disposable income?  They say the hobby will never keep growing, but if you check the auction history for Daystar Rahasia you'll see that one sold for $4 in 1995 ...
:P

So, if you restore your $1,300 woodgrain up to $1,800 level, you might actually be cutting its value down to half optimum - $900.  I assume most of you wouldn't burn four $100 bills if you had them on hand, so it's something to think about.  In comics and books, for example, restoration is even more severe than 50% degradation.

Not to be alarmist.  Just food for thought.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
JG Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 5029
Joined: Oct 11, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2017
Location: Texas

Post Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:57 pm 
 

darkseraphim

well said and very well put.... I agree.

  
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 21, 2