the one that got away....
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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:44 am 
 

bombadil wrote:Based on the color of the card-stock?  Please explain

*nods*. That's a part of the story.

"V" under "D" = 1st variant (= late) rejigging of the plates and continues to the 2nd (as above). Haven't seen any other set yet that contradicts that.
And to confirm the auctioned item isn't a 1st variant, yes the cardstock for U&WA is the same as for the other two books. And the book sizes are the same, too.

If the auctioned item is by some miracle a first print, there's some headscratching to do on the sequences and the Acaeum needs to take the blame for persisting in listing the "1973 pre-pub" long, long after the discussion with Frank Mentzer which finally (and should have been visibly) killed that off.
All told, second print would be rather less painful, no? ;)


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:11 am 
 

Welcome back faro, nice to see you around again,

Didn't Frank mentzer also warn against broad assumptions based around paper tone differences and tiny size variations?  There might be many such variations in a complex print run and we should perhaps be wary of drawing broad conclusions - like that there were several different and distinct print runs of the 1st ed. (or indeed around the existence of the pre-pub  :D ).

[edited to add, yes. 2nd ed. would be a lot less painful  :D ]


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:52 am 
 

red_bus wrote:Didn't Frank mentzer also warn against broad assumptions based around paper tone differences and tiny size variations?


Yep. No broad assumptions: just basing off several dozen "original" woodies and incorporating any extra data as that might become available.
(Having forum members actively encourage each other to hybridise sets doesn't exactly help in that; and I'm sure that various hybrids have been sold on from lack of knowledge as to what grief that causes when trying to work things out, later. :roll:)

red_bus wrote:There might be many such variations in a complex print run and we should perhaps be wary of drawing broad conclusions - like that there were several different and distinct print runs of the 1st ed. (or indeed around the existence of the pre-pub  :D ).


The print run should not be that complex, given the number of books we're talking about. And the covers were applied by the printer, too.

red_bus wrote:[edited to add, yes. 2nd ed. would be a lot less painful  :D ]

No joke... but perhaps you're not just saying that in quite the same way as I am, Steven. ;)


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:07 am 
 

Additional data: 1st print
Confirmed purchase date 10/18/1974 (receipted)
'Hybrid' - original set - as books 2+3 cardstock match, whereas book 1 differs.
3rd book: 'v' right side lines up with 'e' right side.
i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/adderm ... 1216_1.jpg


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:11 am 
 

[threadjack]  Speaking of Frank, I miss having him around. I know he is most likely very busy with his bakery at this time of the year, but I still miss having him around.  His knowledge and insights into these things is always very helpful [/threadjack]


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:15 am 
 

We'll have to put a collection around to see if we can get him here to Oz for 2008  :lol:


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:22 am 
 

Howdy David,


faro wrote:The ISoldIt seller should have sent this to the winner ten days ago. Are you sure he's not trying to wind up the losers? Or else, just clueless by quoting the Acaeum pre-pub?


The quote is from the winner. I am working on getting a scan from him and detail on vol. 3.

faro wrote:There is no connection between the note and the box: no reference to "here's a freebie for you", or anything like that.


Sure but it is a nice bit of anectdotal evidence to pile on top. Inductive reasoning is more fun than deductive reasoning any day!

faro wrote:Remember this, Paul? Does anyone have a genuine non-variant 1st print otherwise? Would love to know, if so...


Yes, yet another reason why I think the variant cover stock is from a later print run, contemporary with the 2nd print. My 1st print conforms to yours.

faro wrote:And it ain't a variant (=late) U&WA, either.


Right. I think that they somehow assymetrically sold out of Vol. 3 or otherwise lost that stock and reprinted it between September 1974 and March 1975. That ties in with the release of Tractics in the vertical woodgrain boxes too. (Side note - my 1st print Tractics has the same dice price crossout as the 1st print Greyhawk. That, among other things, makes them contemporary, I think, giving a release date of, roughly, March/April 1975 for Tractics.)

Thanks for coming back! :P Let me know if you'd consider trading or selling the WD flier.


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:24 am 
 

Howdy,


AdderMcOne wrote:'Hybrid' - original set - as books 2+3 cardstock match, whereas book 1 differs.


How does the Vol. 1 cover vary?


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:12 pm 
 

faro wrote:Yep. No broad assumptions: just basing off several dozen "original" woodies and incorporating any extra data as that might become available.
(Having forum members actively encourage each other to hybridise sets doesn't exactly help in that; and I'm sure that various hybrids have been sold on from lack of knowledge as to what grief that causes when trying to work things out, later. )


I appreciate that - and I have only ever seen two woodies 'in the flesh' (so to speak  :D ).  

But given your larger sample size, let me put my point as a question: have you seen any/many first print sets where all three booklets were, exactly the same same size, and exactly the same colour/tone ?

Having some experience of printers, I can understand how using different cardstock or print plate jiggling can lead to many different subtle variations within one print job.  But there is a leap from subtle differences within one print job, to assuming two (or perhaps more) print jobs.



Hmmm... if it is a 1st print then I will say that it also looked a bit trashed - but let me be clear, that is purely sour grapes on my part for not bidding.  :lol:


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:23 pm 
 

> How does the Vol. 1 cover vary?

Brendon's ($4225, 7/26/06) is an interesting one from the perspective of plate placement, book size and even card stock.
I was laying off asking questions until later, since it's still within "easy reach" of research. ;)

books: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/ ... 0/83_3.jpg
receipt: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/ ... 0/10_3.jpg


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:31 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:But given your larger sample size, let me put my point as a question: have you seen any/many first print sets where all three booklets were, exactly the same same size, and exactly the same colour/tone ?


Yeah, the 3rds (3,300) and 4ths (8,000?) are rather "samey".
The trivial differences within those print runs are minor compared with the (thus far) observed differences within the 1sts although, thus far, groupings within those are falling into reasonably discrete clusters.

red_bus wrote:Hmmm... if it is a 1st print then I will say that it also looked a bit trashed - but let me be clear, that is purely sour grapes on my part for not bidding.  :lol:


It was. I wouldn't have valued it much higher than that, anyhow; of which a substantial fraction was for the Gygax note. And higher priorities for limited budget at present.


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:12 pm 
 

> The quote is from the winner. I am working on getting a scan from him and detail on vol. 3.

Cool. That would require a lil' bit of a shoehorn to fit in, if there's no indication of 2nd print anywhere. I couldn't spot any variations in the sizes of the books, but if the winner could measure each to the nearest 1/4 mm at the spine that might help greatly.
Unfortunately I couldn't judge anything by the R/G/B colors owing to the amount of dirt.
 
> Sure but it is a nice bit of anectdotal evidence to pile on top. Inductive reasoning is more fun than deductive reasoning any day!

More fun, perhaps, but I prefer to ditch that for research purposes when there no obvious connection whatsoever.
For example with more connection, I've got a note from Fritz Leiber dated 8/23/74 (referring to EGG as rules editor for Guidon!) along with the playtest map for Lankhmar. Is that thus dated the same? Or later... or sooner (since the game's being described as "being readied for marketing")?

>> And it ain't a variant (=late) U&WA, either.
> Right. I think that they somehow assymetrically sold out of Vol. 3 or otherwise lost that stock and reprinted it between September 1974 and March 1975.

Yeah, definitely asymmetrical either in printing and/or in sales. No doubt about that and things don't level off until the end of the 2nd print (no 2nd/3rd hybrids yet, IIRC).

> That ties in with the release of Tractics in the vertical woodgrain boxes too. (Side note - my 1st print Tractics has the same dice price crossout as the 1st print Greyhawk.

I have a differently-sized 1st print Greyhawk here with no dice price crossout, remember. ;)

Do we have any factual reason to believe the vertical grain boxes were ordered especially for Tractics? As opposed to just being the box stock that was around when Tractics came back into print.

=

> Thanks for coming back! :P Let me know if you'd consider trading or selling the WD flier.

Cheers, Paul.
Afaik it's a 2-up print of the standard WD1 ad, but you're missing the GW catalog as well, though, for the "set". GW just threw everything together into the box in order to try to boost their sales since there were also grey-market import competitors for D&D.
aside: The seller of that set was *not* the original owner.
Best guess on the 5A at present is that it is a standard US printing but, because of timing, ended up with a *substantial* chunk going to the UK (i.e. Games Workshop's first "large order"). "Normal" 5ths have also been sold on eBay.co.uk from their original owners.


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Post Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:06 am 
 

Does anyone have a genuine non-variant 1st print otherwise? Would love to know, if so...


Welcome back David.

I have a non-variant 1st also. Ask away  :D

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:32 pm 
 

This one got away 8O

Never heard of the bidder but congrats


** expired eBay auction **


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:50 pm 
 


** expired eBay auction **

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:54 pm 
 

thehiddenone wrote:
** expired eBay auction **


WOW 8O


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:26 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
WOW 8O


Wow, indeed!

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:35 am 
 

Two in one day being second bidder AARGH!!  Time to go to bed!

eBay.com Item Bid History


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:53 am 
 

thehiddenone wrote:
** expired eBay auction **


Isn't the winner Troll & Toad Games?  If so, expect to see it up again on ebay with a BIN of $6,500  :wink:

Hmmm, thinks that the price is about right considering what 2nd prints have been going for over the last 18 months or so.  Might have gone to $1,450/1,550 if not snapped up...


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:25 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:This one got away 8O

Never heard of the bidder but congrats


** expired eBay auction **


Don't sweat it, Jeff.  Too high without the ref sheets.   :D


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