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Post Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:09 pm 
 

I never agreed with the "kill the players" idea. To me, the concept of being DM is not to punish or persecute, merely to lay challenges/situations in front of characters and let them do as they will. I always try to make it as natural as it would be in real life. I have no compunctions about having 2nd level characters run into 4 trolls, because that is reality. Trolls do not wait until you are 6th level and above to meet you. What the characters do when they meet them is up to them, though running is usually the best option. Conversely, I also throw 12 kobolds at 10th level parties, because the shoe fits on the other foot.
The only thing I won't do is put characters into a situation which is certain doom. They have the option to do that themselves (see troll scenario), but there is always an out.
I guess I am a referee, not a "Dungeon Master". It's like a football game. The referee doesn't tell the players what to do, he just watches them and enforces the rules.


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:35 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:I never agreed with the "kill the players" idea.

I'm going to assume you meant "kill the characters", but maybe you were just covering your butt in case someone from the government/law enforcement is snooping the forum...  :twisted:

I never went out of my way to kill off any characters, but if it happened, I wouldn't worry too much.  Reincarnation was cheap and fun.

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:08 pm 
 

>>Do you ever wonder if we're now experiencing the same thing those "funny old weirdos" with the tactical military wargames did 30 years ago? Why back in my day...

Yup, I know for a fact the grognards lament the day that TSR focused on making D&D over wargames, with that silly little "brown box."  ;)

There's still some die-hard wargaming groups down in Colorado Springs that I hang out with every couple of years, so they give me (as the "whippersnapper") an earful every time.  The closest I can get them to D&D is through intense sessions of Diplomacy, which involve quite a bit of role-playing.  Actually quite a blast … so I'm sure the generational shift was inevitable.  I'll just have to cling to my out of prints and C&C and live out the glory days when I can.

FWIW, 3.0 had some very nice adventure hooks in the modules that I've modified and used.

On killing PCs … my players were always veterans, except when we all first began at age 8-12.  They became very resourceful very quickly.  I can count on two fingers the number of times a player felt they were dealt an "unfair" hand -- and each time was a truly heroic death they talked about for years afterwards.  I've saved PCs exactly twice as well -- two occasions when the players' dice were cursed, they did everything right, and I was rolling 19s and 20s for the monsters left and right.  Both situations required "fudging" that I couldn't have gotten away with unnoticed if I'd been using a battle grid.

All a matter of taste …
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:44 pm 
 

Shingen wrote:Even though I know that nothing I will say will make anyone here give 3e a chance, I will still say some things in its defense.

First, on the complexity. The rules are simpler than they have ever been. All rolls go on the same style, and the modifiers are simple and easy to use. Combat has a simple system with set actions. Most of the extra rules I hear talk about have little basis in actual fact. Most of the supplemental rules that come out are Skills, Feats, Prestig Classes, Races and Monsters. No new rules. It is just more optional stuff to use.
If you want to talk complexity, lets use all the optional rules in all the 2e books. At least 3/4 of the kits were all broken to hell.

Second, on the munchkinry. This system is no less or more predisposed to munchkinry than any other system. As with every system, it has a potential to be munchkined, but the DM maintains control over that fact.
Furthermore, the reference to the xp and gold to cast that spell was not showing munchkinry; it was an attempt to show how incredibly impossible that spell is, because none of my damn players could ever cast it. In 2e I saw lots of munchkins too; it just depends on the players and DMs.

Third, alot of people dislike the fast leveling. Well, I do too. So I slowed it down. No big deal. No system is perfect. And the DM's perogative is to fix what he dislikes. And I may have made  slight miscalculation + oversimplification, but yes, characters level up fast. In my first ongoing game, before tweaking, we had players at 5th level after about 3 months of weekly, 4 hour long games.

The system also covers a lot of things I had been dealing with for a long time. The skill system allows your players to actually do things out of combat that make more sense. It is easier to track what they are good at. Furthermore, the dreaded feats allow charcters to actually be different in combat style, unlike characters from previous editions.

The Feats system is a bittersweet thing. I know it seems overpowered, but it is actually quite balanced considering all the monsters and NPCs have feats and special abilities too. And that the monsters are a lot beefier than before. It makes combat larger and more dangerous. Feats actually allow a player to make a charcter of his dreams, by customizing what he can do in combat. There are many unbalanced feats, especially those put out by third parties, but DM perogative again.

I think that 3e is possibly the best system yet. It has a way to deal withg almost any situation with a small set of rules. All rolls are made off of a d20 to do anything. Characters are much more detailed. You can actually do alot of things out of combat that make more sense. All in all, the system is , like the others as good as the DM allows it to be.

I think alot of the sentiement here is a sort of stubborn refusal to change, or give 3.5 a fair shake, because of assuredness that your current system is the only good thing out there. If anyone can provide actual play experience problems with the system, or a more informed argument, instead of "I saw this and didn't like it so I won't try it," I would like to hear it. Just a more complete argument.

And BTW, no offense taken on earlier posts either. I hope I have similarly not offended anyone personally.

Ok, I'll bite.  Regarding the rules being less complex than in AD&D, I call bulls#!^.  In OD&D, Holmes D&D, and B/X D&D, combat involved knowing three factors:

  • When do I hit?
  • Do I hit?
  • How much damage do I do?
As a player, there was no absolute need to know what your to hit number was or how much damage your sword can do.  All that mattered is those three things.  The DM is the one that needs to know the to hit numbers and the amount of damage a sword can do.  So what do you have in d20 Fantasy?  You have feats such as "Great Cleave" that provide a bonus.  You have skills, that also provide a bonus.  You have Attacks of Opportunity, which results in more bookkeeping for the DM.  There's far too much math involved in d20 Fantasy combat to make it worthwhile.  I forgot where the post was, but a former d20 Fantasy player learning AD&D (praise him!) commented on how a simple combat between a party of four mid-level characters and their opponents took over an hour, of which most of that time was spent figuring out attack bonuses and figuring out whether 1d20+bonuses was sufficient to overcome the difficulty level.

Combat in d20 Fantasy no longer fits into the paradigm set out by the original games:

  • When do I hit?
  • Do I hit?
  • How much damage do I do?
Character creation is an absolute mess.  You roll for stats just like in the original game, but then you get to choose feats and skills to go along with the stats.  To me, the addition of feats and the poor execution of skills in the game turned the game into a min-maxer's paradise.  The system actively encourages munchkinism.  The older games had some balance to keep the min-maxers in check.  It was up to the DM to allow powergaming or not, whereas in d20 Fantasy, since the DM has no real power, powergaming runs rampant.

On the fast levelling, I do happen to agree with you on that the DM can slow it down, but the entire point is that the DM shouldn't HAVE to slow down advancement.  It should be slow, to give the characters time to develop, so that a bond with the characters can be established by the players.  d20 Fantasy doesn't permit this,instead requiring rapid advancement to satisfy the wants and needs of the wrong group of people.  This game caters to players, not to DM's.  And as someone else in this thread already pointed out, without DM's, you don't have a game.

On other forums, I have dealt with people such as you, and to the majority, I give my stock answer: try Castles & Crusades.  In case you are ill informed, Castles & Crusades uses open gaming content and simpler mechanics to bring back "old school" gameplay.  In it, you will NOT find feats, skills (except for Rogues), Attacks of Opportunity, overt mention of 5' steps, excessive dilution of class archetypes and the corresponding balance that was inherent in them, rapid advancement, and rampant empowerment of players.  What you will find is a modular, highly customizable game that actively puts the power back where it belongs, in the DM's hands.  You want to climb a tree?  Ok, you climb a tree.  What if you need to climb a tree while being chased by wolves?  Ok, beat [target number + difficulty].  You want to attack the orc from behind?  Beat [target number + difficulty] to do it.  It's a much more flexible system, not hamstrung by excessive amounts of numbers that require constant recalculation.  In fact, I can pretty much say that it is perhaps the only modern game system out there that fits in with the paradigm of the original games:

  • When do I hit?
  • Do I hit?
  • How much damage do I do?
One last thing.  You mention a small set of rules.  If you're a DM, you have 1000+ pages of material in your PHB, DMG, and MM.  OD&D and B/X D&D did it in about 100-150 pages apiece.  AD&D, being advanced, took about 500 pages to do everything.  But most of the DMG was essay material, and not absolutely critical.  My personal game involves using the PHB sans psionics and Holmes D&D, with a dash of magic items from the DMG.  I figure that I got AD&D cut down to about 200 pages.  The D&D Rules Cyclopedia provides pretty much everything (except jousting and artifacts) in 304 pages.  All of those are smaller than d20 Fantasy, but they aren't modern games either.

Castles & Cruasdes is a full game in 128 pages, including monsters.

Oh, I'm not personally offended by what you have said either.  I just don't believe you have seen all the alternatives that are available.



  


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:17 pm 
 

Traveller wrote:
  • When do I hit?
  • Do I hit?
  • How much damage do I do?
One last thing.  You mention a small set of rules.  If you're a DM, you have 1000+ pages of material in your PHB, DMG, and MM.  OD&D and B/X D&D did it in about 100-150 pages apiece.  AD&D, being advanced, took about 500 pages to do everything.  But most of the DMG was essay material, and not absolutely critical.  My personal game involves using the PHB sans psionics and Holmes D&D, with a dash of magic items from the DMG.  I figure that I got AD&D cut down to about 200 pages.  The D&D Rules Cyclopedia provides pretty much everything (except jousting and artifacts) in 304 pages.  All of those are smaller than d20 Fantasy, but they aren't modern games either.

Castles & Cruasdes is a full game in 128 pages, including monsters.

Oh, I'm not personally offended by what you have said either.  I just don't believe you have seen all the alternatives that are available.


I have seen all the alternatives. I have played GURPS, Palladium, etc. every system under the sun, including everything to basic D&D. I happen to prefer 3.5 the way darkseraphim prefers older versions of the game; because we have tried the others and chosen what fits us.

When do you hit? On your inititive. Rolled once, at teh beginning of combat.

Do you hit? Add your modifier to the roll. I'll tell you if it's enough.

How much damage?It's right there on your character sheet.

All of these things are still provided for. Great Cleave does not provide a bouns to you attack, but an ability. I am completely unable to see how Skills cause munchkinry, which is a consistent argument. It's a skill. if you try to do something, you roll a d20 and add it. If it makes the DC, you do it. The amount and ranks in skill syou have is limited. It has virtually nothing to do with power level.

Once again, feats can be problematic. But I have found as both player and DM that they allow you to have many options in the way a pC/NPC works.

There is a lot of material. But not that much more than 2e.

Darkseraphim: I still try to kill PCs. I am a rough DM, and 3.5 has never limited my ability to be completely in control of the game. I still put them in tough spots, and thye better learn of die.

I don't see a problem with a faster, more detailed game. I think some of you are allowing the PCs to much leeway. Just do it your damn self.

the miniatures combat I can understand as a problem. We don;t use minis, just dice or little cardboard tiles, but we use the grid. It has eliminated the "where is my guy?" stuff, and makes more sense in combat. The combat actions for the PCs to be much more tactical; they must be aware fo where, how big, and what monsters are doing. That is problem the stickiest part of the game, but it is easily simplified.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:00 pm 
 

Shingen wrote:
Traveller wrote:
  • When do I hit?
  • Do I hit?
  • How much damage do I do?
One last thing.  You mention a small set of rules.  If you're a DM, you have 1000+ pages of material in your PHB, DMG, and MM.  OD&D and B/X D&D did it in about 100-150 pages apiece.  AD&D, being advanced, took about 500 pages to do everything.  But most of the DMG was essay material, and not absolutely critical.  My personal game involves using the PHB sans psionics and Holmes D&D, with a dash of magic items from the DMG.  I figure that I got AD&D cut down to about 200 pages.  The D&D Rules Cyclopedia provides pretty much everything (except jousting and artifacts) in 304 pages.  All of those are smaller than d20 Fantasy, but they aren't modern games either.

Castles & Cruasdes is a full game in 128 pages, including monsters.

Oh, I'm not personally offended by what you have said either.  I just don't believe you have seen all the alternatives that are available.


I have seen all the alternatives. I have played GURPS, Palladium, etc. every system under the sun, including everything to basic D&D. I happen to prefer 3.5 the way darkseraphim prefers older versions of the game; because we have tried the others and chosen what fits us.

When do you hit? On your inititive. Rolled once, at teh beginning of combat.

Do you hit? Add your modifier to the roll. I'll tell you if it's enough.

How much damage?It's right there on your character sheet.

All of these things are still provided for. Great Cleave does not provide a bouns to you attack, but an ability. I am completely unable to see how Skills cause munchkinry, which is a consistent argument. It's a skill. if you try to do something, you roll a d20 and add it. If it makes the DC, you do it. The amount and ranks in skill syou have is limited. It has virtually nothing to do with power level.

Once again, feats can be problematic. But I have found as both player and DM that they allow you to have many options in the way a pC/NPC works.

There is a lot of material. But not that much more than 2e.

Darkseraphim: I still try to kill PCs. I am a rough DM, and 3.5 has never limited my ability to be completely in control of the game. I still put them in tough spots, and thye better learn of die.

I don't see a problem with a faster, more detailed game. I think some of you are allowing the PCs to much leeway. Just do it your damn self.

the miniatures combat I can understand as a problem. We don;t use minis, just dice or little cardboard tiles, but we use the grid. It has eliminated the "where is my guy?" stuff, and makes more sense in combat. The combat actions for the PCs to be much more tactical; they must be aware fo where, how big, and what monsters are doing. That is problem the stickiest part of the game, but it is easily simplified.

Obviously you haven't seen all the alternatives if you can't even respond to my assertion that there is a modern game that can do everything d20 Fantasy can do, and do it in 128 pages.  I have seen the monster that is d20 Fantasy, and I don't like it.  There is one thing I really did not touch on in answering your points, and that is why I don't like d20 Fantasy.  It doesn't FEEL like D&D.  Yes, we're slipping into esoterica here.  To me in order to play a game, it has to feel right.  I've played EVERY version of Dungeons & Dragons except OD&D.  I can even play that now if I choose, thanks to the kindness of one on these forums.  Every version of the game through second edition at least felt like it was the same game.  Everything was good, regardless of which version I played.  The rules to d20 Fantasy actually interfere with the roleplay.  They are everpresent, instead of transparent.  To me, a really good roleplaying game in the fantasy genre has rules that are nearly transparent, that flow with the game.  d20 Fantasy does not fit into that.

You are unable to see how skills cause munchkinry, because the skills themselves are not the problem.  They cannot be the problem if Gary Gygax himself hinted on changing the game to be more skill-based.  Skill-based games do abound, and many of them are good.  The grandfather of the skill-based game has got to be Traveller, with RuneQuest right on its heels.  Both games use skills, and do it quite well.  So no, skills aren't a problem.  Feats are a problem.  Who wouldn't benefit from a +4 bonus to initiative (Improved Initiative)?  A +1 bonus for using an exotic weapon (Exotic Weapon Proficiency)?  And my favorite of them all, Great Cleave.  According to the rules I'm looking at, the requirements are that you have both the Power Attack and Cleave feats.  What is Power Attack?  The ability to subtract a certain amount from your chance to hit and add that amount to the damage you do.  Cleave is the ability to take an extra swipe at an opponent at 0hp or below.  Great Cleave is the same as Cleave except that you can do the same thing multiple times.  While I did misread Great Cleave (thinking it provided a +4 bonus to attack), there is no way in hell you can deny that a feat that lets you hack away at a being as many times as you want is at the very least broken.  Who wouldn't want multiple attacks on one opponent in a round with no penalty?  Feats are utterly asinine, and only foster the viewpoint that d20 Fantasy is a video game on paper, with power ups and added special attacks you learn as you progress.  Castles & Crusades does not use feats, and doesn't need them.  Yet it's still highly entertaining, and it's still a modern game.

And did I mention that Castles & Crusades has the backing of two someones rather important to Dungeons & Dragons as a whole?  Yeah, you might know them.  Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz.  Many of the new generation may believe Gary's out of step, but his thoughts are important to many here.  Do you know what he thinks of d20 Fantasy?  I do.  I spoke to him personally, and I do in fact share many of his thoughts on it.  But I'll let you see what he said to GameSpy.

Originally available at http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/538/538820p2.html
GameSpy: Have you had a chance to play or even look at some of the current Dungeons & Dragons games?

Gygax: I've looked at them, yes, but I'm not really a fan. The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.

Now, should I tell you what I really think?

Gamespy got it.

Oh, and one last thing?  Nobody here, with the possible exception of me, is poo pooing your choice of game.  However, your pleas to try your game fall upon deaf ears.  I'm sure many here have, and have decided against the game.  Yet do you see them evangelizing the older systems like d20 Fantasy people such as yourself?  Other than in this thread and perhaps one other, have you seen me even discuss Castles & Crusades?  I try very hard to avoid peeing in the pool here because my experiences regarding Castles & Crusades as one of its playtesters have no place on a OD&D/AD&D/BXD&D collecting site.  To me, d20 Fantasy has no place here either.



  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:45 pm 
 

Actually, you have Cleave wrong. It's much worse. If you KILL an opponent with a swing, it allows you to make an extra attack against another creature within range.
And Great Cleave? Same thing, except as long as you keep killing creatures in 1 stroke, you can keep on cleaving! Sort of Like in Kung Pao!! Enter the Fist, when he runs horizontally inside the circle of guys, kicking each one in the face.
3E is a joke.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:51 am 
 

darkseraphim wrote:  In short, I don't think today's new players want the same things that made me fall in love with D&D 25 years ago.  They've basically thrown aside 30 years of history to create a similar game in the same genre.  Which is fine, but to anyone who has played D&D for decades, the current game is NOT Dungeons & Dragons - it should be called Heroes & Demigods or something.

It's not that I won't give 3.5 a chance, because I have.  As a DM, I failed before I got started, multiple times, because groups would not accept me.  As a player, I had a good time, while all the while wondering why the game was called D&D.  So the game is good.  It just isn't what it should be.

I don't think it's a fixable issue - people like me will eventually fall by the wayside, and today's 3.5 people will be lamenting the hyper-kinetic kiddies playing D&D 10.0 30 years from now.
:P


You have to understand that D&D is not the same game we played growing up 20 years ago.  It's an entirely new game with the same name.  Which is one of the reasons my group and I don't play, because all of us didn't feel like we wanted to learn a new game to play.  The old one worked for us just fine.  The new game is fun but it's not original D&D and we want to play original D&D, not the new game.
    Marketing wise, WOTC did a masterful job selling 3rd edition by not pandering to a bunch of old fools who were already set in their ways, like me, who didn't want to trash 20+ years of gaming rulebooks, supplements, modules and more to learn a brand new game and buy all brand new material.  This game was marketed to the CCG crowd and kids raised on a steady diet of video games, cable TV, anime, increasingly violent comic book characters, and instant gratification.  You can't help but admire the thought that went into this type of marketing. So don't feel bad, the game was NOT made with you or me in mind.  
    All hope is not lost.  If you can get to the kids early enough, you can train them for the game you know and love, even if it's your own house rules on a 3rd edition framework.  Right now I run a group for the kids of the friends I grew up playing D&D with.  Despite 3rd Edition's popularity, we run my homebrewed 2nd edition campaign with absolutely no thought of switching. Occassionally, one of the kids talks wistfully about getting "feats" or being able to hit something and do 10d10 pts of damage, but in the end it's the game that matters and not the particular rules.   They have plenty of chances to indulge in 3.5 edition madness, and always come back to my table, because the fun and camraderaie outweigh the benefits of going up two levels in one night.
    In the end it's a generational thing.  Nothing you can do about it but attempt to save a chosen few.

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:17 am 
 

Traveller wrote:Oh, and one last thing?  Nobody here, with the possible exception of me, is poo pooing your choice of game.  However, your pleas to try your game fall upon deaf ears.  I'm sure many here have, and have decided against the game.  Yet do you see them evangelizing the older systems like d20 Fantasy people such as yourself?  Other than in this thread and perhaps one other, have you seen me even discuss Castles & Crusades?  I try very hard to avoid peeing in the pool here because my experiences regarding Castles & Crusades as one of its playtesters have no place on a OD&D/AD&D/BXD&D collecting site.  To me, d20 Fantasy has no place here either.


I haven't asserted that. i have said some people are refusing to see it any different, even possible, without even trying it. I am not trying to evangelize, which is just ridiculous. I heard some players sya they didn't like d20, and attempted to correct inaccuracies, and try to get some people who may have been misinformed to look at it differently. And most people have been open minded, and willing to just say "I'm comfortable with what I got, but you make good points." You are the only one becoming so heated about it.

No one has to evangelize the old systems to me, because I have them. Simple.

I figured since this was a RP collectible site, people might play roleplaying games. But apparently, only talk about certain systems is acceptable.

Whatever. Since most people have been cool, I feel this was a cool thread, because everyone experessed an opinion, and defended it, in good faith. But this overtly hostile gesture, telling me what has no place in this forum, sours me. I'm done talking about it. Sorry for polluting your forum with divergent thoughts.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:07 am 
 

Shingen,  If its any consolation I agree with you.

I normally lurk here but just had to come out and say it.  Why?  Well I've been playing D&D a long time (not as long as some) but about 20 years - since the erol otus covered basic set.  Moved rapidly on to AD&D and dropped out just as 2nd edition was coming in (other games and then other interests).

I got back into D&D with 3e.  Found a new group through a friend of mine and started playing.  I have also played other games with that group.  Now while I liked 3e  I too longed for the good old days of 1e.  So we started up playing 1e ToEE and I started running a HackMaster game.

And guess what.  After a while we didn't actually enjoy it as much as the 3e we were playing.  What we loved about 1e was mainly nostalgia and memories.

What did we do.  Well I stopped running HackMaster (i'm now running a d20 Call of Cthulhu game) and we converted our ToEE game over to 3e.  Guess what - we are all enjoying it more than ever!.  Nearly finished the temple and will be moving on to Giants (then Drow) all 3e conversions.

So don't rule 3e out.  I did but I was wrong and I changed my mind.  Sure 3e has its problems.  Yes it can be powergamer-y.  Yes some of the books have ridiculous feats in it (I would never touch a third party book because the stuff in them is not balanced IMHO).  But the challenge is still there.  Characters have still died.  And we are still having fun.

The thing I like about 3e is the way that you can use the rules to give your character so much more flexibility.  No longer are all fighters essentially the same.  The classes are no longfer rigid archetypes but with multiclassing and prestige classes are tools with which one can create really interesting characters with really interesting abilities.  And yes I realise you could differentiate characters by role-player rather than just with abilities but when you can differentiate them with role--playing AND abilities it really is something.

Well that is just my view and I realise there are some I will never convince.  But just as I was wrong some of you might be too and so you shouldn't rule it out just because you "think" you may not like it.

Sardan

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:11 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Actually, you have Cleave wrong. It's much worse. If you KILL an opponent with a swing, it allows you to make an extra attack against another creature within range.
And Great Cleave? Same thing, except as long as you keep killing creatures in 1 stroke, you can keep on cleaving! Sort of Like in Kung Pao!! Enter the Fist, when he runs horizontally inside the circle of guys, kicking each one in the face.
3E is a joke.

This is a horrible thing, but I believe it has it's roots in 1e.  IIRC, there was a rule somewhere that allowed a fighter to take a number attacks equal to his level against creatures less than 1 HD (ie, kobolds).  We didn't use this rule, as it seems awfully cheesy, but I believe the purpose was to avoid masses of kobolds from overbearing every high-level party.

Can someone please confirm the existence of this rule?

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:22 am 
 

I remember that too.  But I can't tell you where to find it.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:55 am 
 

Yes also remembered.

Wasn't it only fighters of a certain (name?) level though?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:00 am 
 

3E.................
My half-dragon/half-mind flayer paladin/sorcerer/druid level 2/1/1 breathes fire. 10d6. Etc. Etc.
The real problem with roleplayiing now is that the kids are not encouraged to use intellect and emotion to play. They only need to crunch numbers. It's Magic the Gathering and Final Fantasy merged and sold as an RPG.  And I agree, marketwise WoTC did the smart thing. So did Metallica when they cut off their hair and started doing love ballads. Doesn't mean they don't suck, though.
3E is NOT roleplaying, it's a paper video game. Look at the term. ROLEplaying. Playing a role. Not playing a paper sheet with numbers, playing an actual character with personality and goals other than the next treasure mound and level.
That being said, if someone prefers to use 3E, not only do I not care, I have no right to bash them. Do what you enjoy. But, I wouldn't harbor any hopes of converting those of us who broke our cherries in the B series. 3E players can never understand what they missed, even if they try AD&D after they try 3E. The experiences don't even compare.
Hell, it's like banging a broad for your first time. If you do a nice, respectable chick (AD&D), you get a taste of the nicer points, and yet you can appreciate the Saturday night sluts later on. If you bang a tramp (3E), you lose respect for the whole process, and see it as just a way to get off without Vaseline. Subsequently, you treat EVERY chick like a 3E chick.
So, treat roleplaying like pussy. Get the best before you get the rest.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:02 am 
 

The multi-attack rule was against creatures of less than 1 HD. You could make one attack per level. No name level restriction. I'll get the page for you when I get home.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:13 am 
 

Multi attacks vs. >1HD creatures is in the Players HB and it only applies to fighters. There is a level restriction (Can't quite remember for sure) of maybe 7th or 9th level.

It is an overlooked rule that most people never used or even knew was there. Comparing it to cleave and great cleave is a joke. Sort of like Kerry comparing the war on terror with the problem with prositituion or gambling...

Anyway, Traveler summed it up best.

3.0+ has none of the "feel" of AD&D. At its heart, AD&D really is a simple game. I even thought 2nd Edition lost something.

Some of the best RPGs created often shared one thing in common. The rule system was relatively short and concise. Champions for example. That system was awesome. The entire rule book was what, 64 pages!


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:21 pm 
 

Well I agree to "feel" - why I moved into HackMaster for a while.

But 3e is still IMHO a good game.

And 'round our table there is ROLE-playing as well as combat.

There are a couple of guys who can't role-play but then they couldn't in 1e :wink:

All I'm saying is don't necessarily dismiss it.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:40 pm 
 

The 3.0 campaign I was trying to get going was Greyhawk classics, heavily modified, series:  U1-U2-U3-A1-A2-A3-A4-S2-WG4-S4-G1-G2-G3-D1-D2-D3-Q1-S1.  I had restrictions on race and multi-classing to emulate 1E.  Only restrictions on prestige and feats were finding an excuse/mentor.

No bites.  I never even got past the arguing stage with any group.  Which is too bad, because I really wanted to give the new system a chance by giving it a workout in the classics.  I was hoping to run a Greyhawk campaign with the old school feel and new mechanics, so that we got the best of both worlds, and bridged our play styles together.

Ah well.  I was really excited when the game came out, but I don't like it as designed.  Had fun playing 3.5, though.  But I play RPGs on my PS2 with my girlfriend (her faves are Kingdom Hearts and Dark Cloud 2), and I honestly felt 3.5 had more to do with the PS2 than D&D.

:?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:16 pm 
 

3E and D&D aren't even in the same class. No one could really argue that. Sorcerers using crossbows? In a class-based system, that is a huge no-no. Too much power. But then again, 3E is all about player power.


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:34 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:3E and D&D aren't even in the same class. No one could really argue that. Sorcerers using crossbows? In a class-based system, that is a huge no-no. Too much power. But then again, 3E is all about player power.

Hmm, maybe I'm going to lose my "old school" D&D badge, but I don't see anything wrong with a sorcerer using a crossbow as a "last ditch" effort.  

Imagine you've used your last spell, and an ogre or something has already broken your dagger/staff, and your lead fighter's just been eaten.  You grab the first relatively dangerous thing you can (a crossbow in this case, though a short bow is more likely because of strength considerations loading the darn thing), and fire.  Probably a -4 or worse penalty to hit, on top of their already pathetic THAC0.  We didn't actually allow crossbows in our campaigns, as they were a couple centuries too advanced...but you get the idea.

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