To answer the thread -- I probably haven't played in 15 years, unless computer stuff counts =) Sadly, the experience from Baldur's Gate 2 or Knights of the Old Republic often times outstrips the experience of RPGing with poor players (of which there are far too many).

As a kid, I was into Powers & Perils for some reason.  Apparently it's still big (sort of) in Scandinavia (or maybe just Finland).  Later on Runequest 2e became my favorite.  Ironically enough I never, ever liked the D&D rules or universe, but it's always been the fallback that everyone can agree to play.

For sci-fi, Traveller and Star Frontiers were my big two.  I always appreciated that my character could die during char-gen in Traveller =)

darkseraphim wrote:I only game vicariously now, by offering advice to those who contact me about their campaigns.  I follow their logs occasionally.  Unfortunately I don't have time for anything else -- committed to too many projects.  But I'd love to play 1E if I could!

My problem with 3.0 and 3.5 is a double-edged sword.  The game was clearly designed after a huge amount of player and DM feedback was received.  But since players outnumber DMs, the designers seem to have focused too strongly (much too strongly) on player empowerment.  Feats, skills, prestige classes, etc. give players options they love, and involve them in the game much, much more.  That's the good part.

The problem with all of that detail is that you can plan a character out from level 1 to 20 (30?  40?  The progression is too quick now), with every little perk, class, and ability you want to discover along the way.  It's then just a question of railroading the DM into meeting your agenda.  My own players (who I miss dearly) were wonderful, and willing to accept DM decisions with grace.  We had arguments after the session sometimes that made me a better DM.  But the new crop of players, every time I try to start a 3.0 (now 3.5) campaign, I try to put controls on the process to bring out the best qualities of the old game that have been lost..

The Basics of 3rd ed are good.  Problem being, most 3rd Ed DMs were learning to play at the same time as their players. As a result, I have yet to see a 3rd ed campaign where the players haven't just run roughshod over the poor DM who was railroaded at every turn into giving them characters more at home in a video game than any sort of heroic fantasy milieu.  Maybe now that 3rd ed has been around a few years, the DMs have hopefully gotten more knowledgable and able to control the game better. The few games I watched in the recent past were absolutely horrific, with the players spending all their time min/maxing their characters at the expense of the rookie DM.

   My group plays 2nd Edition, but I have heavily modified it over the last 15 years or so.  I customized around 20 or so core classes, balancing them so that any character class kit is viable and enjoyable to play, and munchkinism is totally nonexistent....there just isn't any one class that can be abused or min/maxed enough in my system to make it any more enjoyable than any other.  As a result, players in my campaign play the character they WANT to play, not one that will "kill them the most monsters." We actually get a lot of former 3rd Ed players that want more structure come and game with us after they wander around in the 3rd edition wilderness for awhile...it's really the Dm and the guys you play with that make or break the game, not the system.  It's odd but in some ways there may just be too many choices in 3rd edition...in my campaign the choices are limited, but with 20+ archetypes you could still game for years and not play every sort of character type.
     I game with a core of 3-4 players that I've been gaming with for 20 years or so, and several newer gamers.  A few of the things I do to keep it interesting:  All players must play a different character class than they did in the last campaign; Alignments are NG or NE, with only very exceptionally saintly or demonic beings at the extremes of Lawful or Chaotic; I use very non-traditional settings for my campaigns to throw the "old guard" of mine "off guard", so to speak...we are adventuring in a jungle campaign now, I've run an arctic campaign, an entirely underground campaign where the characters were all dwarves of different classes, and a shipboard campaign where the characters spent most of their time either on or underneath the ocean; I award "Hero points" for exceptionally heroic (some call them foolhardy) deeds so that my campaigns have a more "heroic fantasy" feel, characters can redeem them for added ability scores, hit points or escaping certain death in doomed situations.
 
    Mostly we play 2nd edition because my core group is older, had played 2nd edition for over a decade, and didn't feel like buying all new rulebooks and learning a new game.  The only other game we play with any regularity is Call of Cthulhu, several of us are Lovecraft fans and have been playing for about 20 years, dragging the occassional newbie to his or her doom...

Mike B.

Badmike wrote:The Basics of 3rd ed are good.  Problem being, most 3rd Ed DMs were learning to play at the same time as their players. As a result, I have yet to see a 3rd ed campaign where the players haven't just run roughshod over the poor DM who was railroaded at every turn into giving them characters more at home in a video game than any sort of heroic fantasy milieu.  Maybe now that 3rd ed has been around a few years, the DMs have hopefully gotten more knowledgable and able to control the game better. The few games I watched in the recent past were absolutely horrific, with the players spending all their time min/maxing their characters at the expense of the rookie DM.

   My group plays 2nd Edition, but I have heavily modified it over the last 15 years or so.  I customized around 20 or so core classes, balancing them so that any character class kit is viable and enjoyable to play, and munchkinism is totally nonexistent....there just isn't any one class that can be abused or min/maxed enough in my system to make it any more enjoyable than any other.

Heh, the shoe's on the other foot now, 2nd edition.  I remember thinking how cheesy/munchkiny "kits" were.  And the Complete Guide to Anything, too.  (Nice format, content, and design -- still doesn't belong in role-playing).  

Now, we had our share of power-hungry players/characters in 1st, too.  I once played a 13th level drow MU/Thief character that somehow got transformed into a half-Troll, half-Titan after an involuntary reicarnation by Circe.  "I'm not dead yet!".  We had just left the dwarven mines of a rare +6 metal with a tidy sum for "rescuing" the miners, too.  

But it was a different sort of munchkinism, then.  It wasn't officially sanctioned in the guidelines.  It came from DM balance oversights.  It was easily corrected by a series of ghastly DM fixes that seem appalling today.  The DM used to be king and was treated with the respect of a king.

I personally love to get out my D&D Rules Cyclopedia, and run a nice simple basic game every now and then. Using alot of my old modules, I can crank out fun games. However, most of my players now prefer the customization and clarity of 3e, so it doesn't happen so awesome.

slydeshadowdart wrote:I long for a good 2nd ed AD&D game.  Actually, we're playing Shadowrun because they all refuse to play 2nd ed, and I get a wave of abject nausea any time I'm too close to 3x crap.

It's thanksgiving weekend here in Canada and my brother brought over 3rd Edition "Epic Level" and "Savage Species".  Good for a laugh.  You can actually roleplay a gelatinous grizzly...aka a frickin' Gummi Bear.

And they have a spell/feat/whatever that does 305d6 (no typo) of damage.

deimos3428 wrote:
And they have a spell/feat/whatever that does 305d6 (no typo) of damage.

For my own sanity, as a 3e advocate, could you find out what does that? I think someone may have incorrectly doen some math.

And, by the way, there is no actually advocacy of Gelatinous creatures as characters, but rather a template to be applied. Many other monsters are set as classes, which cannto be used as an indictment of 3e, because people always want to play monsters.

This spell must have been a direct result of the lobbying of the dice industry...

But then, in 1st Edition you only need a 305th level magic-user to throw a fireball and produce a similar effect... no?

deimos3428 wrote:

Ralf Toth wrote:This spell must have been a direct result of the lobbying of the dice industry...

But then, in 1st Edition you only need a 305th level magic-user to throw a fireball and produce a similar effect... no?

Hmm..the game's over 30 years old...somebody might actually have one of these  

The Arduin Grimoire actively encourages those types of characters.  The XP charts in AGI go up to 105th Level.  From there it's just a matter of extrapolation.

In 2E, spellcasters were limited to a maximum of 10d6 damage on both Fireball and Lightning Bolt.  Needless to say, that rule got tossed in d20 Fantasy.  Would you expect anything less?

Now, can anyone possibly tell me just what the point of having a spell that does 305d6 worth of damage without earning it the hard way?  Oh I forgot!  You have to ace that Red Dragon that has some 2000 hit points.

Overpowered.  I think I'll cast my single 10th Level spell now:

Armageddon (Evocation)
Level: 10
Range: 0
Duration: Permanent
Area of Effect: One world
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: When the magic-user casts Armageddon, a blast of pure energy fires downward at the point where the magic-user stands.  Any beings caught within the area of effect take 1 sextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) points of damage, no saving throw allowed.  The blast of pure energy is of sufficient power to vaporize the entire planet, again with no saving throw allowed.

Game over.

P.S. I thought the description needed updating to 1st Edition standards, but I have to wonder if I lost something in the translation.  After all, Best of Dragon I kept the description short and sweet.

10th Level
Armageddon: A blast of pure energy delivering 10^21 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) points of damage.  Destroys the world.  No saving throw.  Game over.

But then again, how would d20 Fantasy word it?

Armageddon
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Wiz 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

A pure beam of energy strikes you.  You are entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack.  If the save is successful, you take 3d6 points of damage.

You might still die even if you succeed on your saving throw, as all matter surrounding you is instantly vaporized.

You decide.

darkseraphim wrote:Ah, munchkinism taken to its logical conclusion.

The most entertaining thing to do with a group of diehard power gamers is to teach them Call of Cthulhu, have them roll up characters (librarians, ex-gangsters, archaeologists, 1925 weapons-law restrictions apply) and dump them into Masks of Nyarlathotep.

Offer $100 worth of old D&D modules to any player resourceful and clever enough to get through the campaign on a single character, -$30 per character death.  I can virtually guarantee you that you won't have to dole out anything by campaign's end.

BRAVO!  I have buddies of mine who are diehard fantasy RPGers that still to this day cannot get a character in CoC to survive longer than one adventure.

Mike B.