Gary stated, "took a look, seems to be a rip-off of the D&D game that I've never seen before." Skip was a bit more verbose (relayed from a staff member at TSR):"I've never seen the original playtest version of The Fantasy Game, but I showed a page of what you sent me to Skip Williams, who thought it did not sound like Gygax. Specifically, he pointed out some differences in wording of similar sentences that appeared in the 1st edition 3-bk version and said that the published line sounded like Gary but the similar line in the document you sent did not sound to him like something that Gary would have changed to the published reading. Sorry if I've expressed it poorly, but there it is for what it worth: the reaction of someone who was in the Lake Geneva gaming group at the time D&D was percolating supports Gygax's story that this, whatever it was, probably was written based on the published books. Whatever it is, it must be very early. I can well believe that a fan would go to these lengths: I once created my own Risk board, cards, and counters because I couldn't afford a store-bought set. For years I preferred my variant to the original, even after I owed one. There are also numerous accounts of folks trying to tinker with and "fix" 1st edition D&D, some of which attempts resulted in whole new (if derivative) games, like T&T. Sorry not to be able to provide anything more definite."
FoulFoot wrote:Just to throw some kerosene on the fire -- I'm the one who sent scans of BTPTBD to Gary, some eleven years ago. I also forwarded it to Skip Williams. This was the response I got back, paraphrased:Gary stated, "took a look, seems to be a rip-off of the D&D game that I've never seen before." Skip was a bit more verbose (relayed from a staff member at TSR):"I've never seen the original playtest version of The Fantasy Game, but I showed a page of what you sent me to Skip Williams, who thought it did not sound like Gygax. Specifically, he pointed out some differences in wording of similar sentences that appeared in the 1st edition 3-bk version and said that the published line sounded like Gary but the similar line in the document you sent did not sound to him like something that Gary would have changed to the published reading. Sorry if I've expressed it poorly, but there it is for what it worth: the reaction of someone who was in the Lake Geneva gaming group at the time D&D was percolating supports Gygax's story that this, whatever it was, probably was written based on the published books. Whatever it is, it must be very early. I can well believe that a fan would go to these lengths: I once created my own Risk board, cards, and counters because I couldn't afford a store-bought set. For years I preferred my variant to the original, even after I owed one. There are also numerous accounts of folks trying to tinker with and "fix" 1st edition D&D, some of which attempts resulted in whole new (if derivative) games, like T&T. Sorry not to be able to provide anything more definite."(I don't believe the above quote is news to anyone involved -- I sent it to Keith).I briefly read over some of the discussion you cited, and while I think everybody's made some great points, I think what's clearest is that this was neither a product of Arneson's, nor of Gygax's? I'd also argue against it being anything pre-1974. From what I've seen, it's way too professionally put-together, compared to the similar stuff floating around at the time (aside from the artwork and typeset fonts -- as have been mentioned -- how about the right-justified text, with the word breaks? Somebody put it in a heck of a lot of time -- and if 1973/1974, then probably more time than the 1st print LBB's took!).Just my two cents. For the record, I have absolutely no dog in this fight -- I'll be happy however this turns out. I also have absolutely no source knowledge, as I was proudly still in diapers in 1973. :)Foul
GamesGuy wrote:Any chance we can see scans (even if watermarked or otherwise obfuscated in some way)?
increment wrote:I'm aware that Gygax dismissed this out of hand. As I'm sure you know, Dave Arneson's reaction was quite different: he said "It might be 'MY DRAFT.' The one that I sent Gary way back when. OR his first draft back. Either way it is VERY COOL!" So we have two data points that couldn't be more different from the two guys in the best position to evaluate it.
FoulFoot wrote:GamesGuy wrote:Any chance we can see scans (even if watermarked or otherwise obfuscated in some way)?This has been put up by one of the folks on one of the discussion threads:D&D8 | tillek63 | Flickr
Zenopus wrote:[ Image ]One interesting detail in the 6th picture is the sign reading "LORD ARN". This made me think someone other than Arneson drew this picture in tribute to him. Jon, are there any instances of a Lord Arn appearing in Blackmoor or Arneson's other writing?I'm not sure what the top sign says: "EMWOOD"? Could be "Elf WOOD", but if so the "l" and "f" are the only letters not capitalized. But if so could it refer to the Elf Forest east of Blackmoor?The second sign appears to say "VILLEGE". Arnesonian misspelling?
darkseraphim wrote:Considering all of the above, my own first wild guess is …One of the participants in Dave Arneson's Twin Cities gaming group wanted a copy of the D&D/Fantasy Game playtest manuscript that Gary Gygax had just mailed to Dave (~November or December 1973). Dave responded by copying his copy and giving it to this guy.This guy ran off, fiddled with the rules to make them "more Chainmail-ish and more Blackmoor-ian" or something, and typed up his own manuscript working from Gygax's first manuscript prose. He then typed up (~early 1974) a refined version (I have a hard time believing someone could come up with a right-justified typewritten manuscript on the fly), and either he or his buddy illustrated it.The resulting manuscript was used and distributed in Minnesota as Beyond This Point Be Dragons, "the real rules," because Gary's rules were "wrong" and going in the wrong direction from a Twin Cities perspective.Gary knew people were copying the notes for play and the manuscript basically begged to be tinkered with, but he never saw Beyond This Point Be Dragons and would regard it as a wrong-minded Chainmail/D&D first draft variant if he did.These copies of BTPBD were distributed a bit, perhaps with copies made at Dave's house, and one ended up in M.A.R. Barker's hands, through a channel he could not recall.Too wild?If not too wild, my next question is: does Mike Mornard (or someone else) recall anyone who played in both Arneson's Blackmoor campaign and Barker's Tekumel playtests? From what I understand, Mr. Mornard became a freshman at UofM in the autumn of 1973; then started playing in Blackmoor in late 1973; Barker got back into wargames around March 1974; Mike was introduced to Barker around March-April 1974, and Barker was working on Tekumel (later Empire of the Petal Throne) ~April-May 1974. Would our mystery guy be in that time and place? Who besides Dave Arneson is listed as a playtester for the pre-publication version of EPT?