1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D
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Post Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:09 pm 
 

Not much more to add here, though there's a couple thing I will addrees, just because I think that I need to:
increment wrote in 1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D:Given the number of times I have typed "of course it's possible" or something like in the past couple days, I'm a bit curious that you're suggesting I said other explanations are not possible (rather than just untenable). Do be mindful not to create a strawman of what I'm saying to argue against, either here or referring back to the beginning of this thread.


No intention to argue a strawman, everything I've said is in 100% good faith.  But while admittedly you've said you wouldn't rule certain things out completely, there (at least) was significant strong sentiment that they were highly unlikely, which is why I took the position I did.

bclarkie wrote in 1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D:
increment wrote in 1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D:Because you're certainly not the first to raise this question, I did show the document to some experts on handwriting and art, along with samples of Gygax and Arneson's hands (and in Arneson's case, illustrations), of which I have some good exemplars.  In my paper I excerpt expert testimony from a forensics person, who does these sorts of analyses for courts, that the hand on the dungeon maps is likely to be Gygax's. If you think this would be a source of true objective certainty, though, I have some bad news for you - these experts never couch their assessments in certainties, and I only mention them in the hopes that they happen to be useful for future research.


The issue with that I would have is probably not what you would think.  I can understand the issue with handwriting expert not quantifying anything as "certain".  My issue with the maps being Gygax's would be "How did they get there?"  Now that may seem to be an obvious answer, however if your working with a photocopy of a document(as I believe that you are), that levies a whole host of other possibilities other than "He obviously put them there himself".

As you say, given the whole thing is apparently a photocopy, of course the compiler of this text could have just photocopied pages of Gygax's hand and then typed page numbers on them. That handily illustrates that where we do see handwriting in this document, even that doesn't provide us with a stronger flavor of certainty than a textual analysis. But access to handwrititen pages of Gygax's that are pre-D&D would not be something many people had, and it would be another indicator that we're on the right track with this. I agree that it does not at all entail that Gygax himself put the pages there. But it would mean that this document preserves the original material Gygax before D&D, which is indeed what my whole argument here has been about. That isn't altered one iota by who compiled it.

increment wrote in 1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D:
My point here really was about the fact that dates don't come to you on a silver platter, and that having a date on a document isn't some kind of mystical ward that prevents confusion. I have opened a lot of old garage boxes or their close cousins in my days of researching gaming, and I'd say when you find a bunch of material together, it's a reliable indicator of rough dates, not a silver bullet. String together enough reliable indicators, from the text, from forensics, from provenance, and yes, the case for other explanations becomes untenable. Again, it's a question of how many coincidences and far-outlier hypotheses we have to tolerate at one time before the explanation that this is a photocopy of a pre-D&D draft just becomes far less painful to bear.


I totally understand that and agree for the most part. :)


increment wrote in 1973 Pre-publication Edition of D&D:And how painful is it to bear? It's a bit of an aside, but I do find it interesting how easily we can swallow an early EPT draft surviving, but when it comes to D&D, we expect something much grander and more obvious. It's like a kind of "D&D exceptionalism." Because D&D turned to be so important, we develop an expectation that people must have treated it differently when it was under development, that there'd be golden tablets or something left behind. But no one knew this would be important. No one thought we'd be agonizing over these details later. We don't when the title D&D was devised, though it seems to have been quite late. We don't know how many ways of bringing the game to market were considered before TSR was founded. We really don't have much grounds to expect what form a pre-D&D draft would take. Now when it comes to Dalluhn, maybe it originally had a cover page that was lost, just like at least one page on the back of the thing was lost (it was bound only with paper clips). But even if we had a cover that said "by Dave and Gary!" I think we'd still need entirely the same textual analysis before we should believe something like this to be authentic: which is why I'm comfortable accepting the document on these grounds.


Truthfully, I get where you're coming from, but I really don't have a dog in the EPT race.  For whatever reason, I'm absolutely fascinated by EPT, more-so than most things, but it still quite doesn't hold my interest or boggle my mind like D&D does.

Honestly, I can't even give a good explanation for it, EPT is cool as hell, but to me it's still not D&D, despite it's direct connection to it in both age, significance and tie-in.

And again, I'd like to apologize for coming into this (old) thread so strongly, my intentions were pure, if not a bit clumsily stated.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:25 pm 
 

As the new year, and the 40th anniversay of D&D, are upon us...

It's with no small surprise that I report that there survives a decent chunk of pre-publication D&D working notes typed and edited by Gary Gygax. Michael Mornard found photocopies of these, which were given to him by Gygax, in one of his storage boxes this month. These "Mornard Fragments" show tantalizing glimpses into the state of the D&D system in 1973; unfortunately, the surviving pages are few enough that they alone do not describe a complete, or even near-complete, pre-publication state of D&D. However, the Fragments do have a decisive relationship to the Dalluhn Manuscript, one which lets us place these notes in a known context, and also one which firmly locates the Dalluhn Manuscript in the evolutionary process of D&D's development. While I will have more to say about the Fragments soon, here is a representative example of how the Fragments look, and how they relate to Dalluhn:

playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2013/12/ ... draft.html

This is the prototype for the Treasure Type A table on Monsters & Treasure pg22. As is obvious from the close correspondence between the Fragments and Dalluhn, they are much nearer to one another in time than, say, Dalluhn is to OD&D.

While the discovery of the Mornard Fragments is a big deal in its own right, what does this new evidence establish with regard to my earlier claims in this thread?

1) It proves that Gary misremembered when he dismissed the Dalluhn Manuscript as a "rip-off." The text of Dalluhn is, in this section and elsewhere, virtually identical to Gary's hand-edited working draft.

2) Similarly, this lays to rest any arguments departing from the premise that Dalluhn "doesn't sound like Gary" -- while the text reflects collaboration and ongoing editing, and we can't know if any given word was contributed by Gary or someone else, Gary's working drafts included this material.

3) It also pretty much rules out any possibility that the variance from OD&D reflected in Dalluhn remained local to the Twin Cities and never reached Gygax.  The respects in which Dalluhn varies from the published version of OD&D clearly were known and endorsed down in Lake Geneva.

4) Due to Dalluhn's close correspondence to these working notes, I don't think any serious doubt can entertained about whether or not the Dalluhn Manuscript preserves a 1973 version of Dungeons & Dragons.

One question that the Fragments won't answer is the question of who typed Dalluhn. Because the Fragments are so close to the content of Dalluhn, we can say with some confidence that Dalluhn was typed based on notes from around the same time, but exactly when it was typed is also not something the Fragments can tell us. The Fragments do show us, however, that Gygax's working notes were rough: double spaced, with many typing errors aside from his semantic corrections.  If a pre-publication version was distributed for playtesting, as early sources tell us, it would probably have to be a bit more polished that the Fragments. It also seems reasonable from the state of the Fragments that a less error-prone typist might have been asked to produce that version.

As a final note, obviously it would be great to possess a complete copy of Gary's working notes, but all we have (for now, anyway) are these sixteen or so pages. And it is really only thanks to Dalluhn that we are able to understand the context of the Fragments. Since the two surviving documents are from roughly the same era, and the system they preserve is effectively identical, collectively they show us the earliest surviving form of Dungeons & Dragons.

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:43 pm 
 

Thank you Jon for your persistence and dedication in tracking down and examining these surviving pre-D&D artifacts. You do us all a service.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:53 am 
 

Fantastic work, Jon! (and thanks Mike for finding these notes!)

The only tragedy here is the mockery that large corporations have made of our copyright system that everyone remains frozen of fear from sharing works which obviously are of historical and scholarly study importance. It would be great if many people could engage in study of these documents. We could have avoided 2 years of baseless conjecture from people who had nothing to argue from but understandable skepticism about documents which remained hidden for 40 years.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:11 am 
 

Great job, Jon! One more step down this difficult, but extremely fascinating, road. Thank you!


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

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