L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..

Posts: 5636 · Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:54 am

benjoshua wrote:

I'd rather them ask for help than allow pride to hold anyone at arm's length. I anticipate it will be noticeably better eventually. It sounds like it was quite a mess to begin with. Hmmmm.....

It would have been great if they had offered "in sight" editing four years ago. This thing would look great by now. The Acaeum is catching an ass-kicking over there for our comments, but I'm ok with that as long as this gets done properly.....

It seems Chris (Solo) might be more concerned with getting this fixed up than with pretending nothing was wrong with it (although some of the posters seem to have taken that view).

Mike B.

Posts: 7 · Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:27 am

Badmike wrote:

It would have been great if they had offered "in sight" editing four years ago. This thing would look great by now. The Acaeum is catching an ass-kicking over there for our comments,

I would disagree with that assessment. I've seen only one (one-line) comment so far there (in regards to this) from anybody that I would say implies a negative view about the group here, and as for myself, I'm willing to admit here that the *only* bad thing I've had to say about the criticisms I've seen over here about L4 is that many have appeared to me to digress into the expression of negative opinions about the abilities or motivations of the people who worked on it (which I'm afraid I can't see possibly doing anything but inspiring antipathy, such as the one-line negative comment I referred to earlier), rather than focusing on the problems with the work itself .

Solo's said that somebody is free to start a thread in the Workshop forum on DF for suggested edits, although I notice that nobody has started one yet. If people can adhere to restricting criticisms to specific issues governing the work itself instead of unsubstantiated side remarks about the abilities or intentions of the people who worked on it, I think that'd be a darn fetching idea.

Posts: 5636 · Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:47 am

xyzchyx wrote:

I would disagree with that assessment. I've seen only one (one-line) comment so far there (in regards to this) from anybody that I would say implies a negative view about the group here, and as for myself, I'm willing to admit here that the *only* bad thing I've had to say about the criticisms I've seen over here about L4 is that many have appeared to me to digress into the expression of negative opinions about the abilities or motivations of the people who worked on it (which I'm afraid I can't see possibly doing anything but inspiring antipathy, such as the one-line negative comment I referred to earlier), rather than focusing on the problems with the work itself .

Solo's said that somebody is free to start a thread in the Workshop forum on DF for suggested edits, although I notice that nobody has started one yet. If people can adhere to restricting criticisms to specific issues governing the work itself instead of unsubstantiated side remarks about the abilities or intentions of the people who worked on it, I think that'd be a darn fetching idea.

Since the mood has turned decidedly ridiculous over there, I've offered to review the product in the "Reviews" section of DF. We'll see what kind of rightgeous outrage will be stirred up by this... Rolling Eyes

I predict more strawmen arguments vis a vis L4 and free beer..... Laughing

Mike B.

Posts: 2950 · Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:07 pm

I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm surprised that it's still being discussed.

L4 is what it is -- a piece of fantasy writing released to the public for free. Perhaps it could have been released a bit sooner, or edited a bit better, or hyped a bit less. It still has some interesting ideas, characters, and places. It can be salvaged in whole or in part by a DM willing to put in some amount of effort. The result was mildly disappointing, but "meh".

However, the whole "put up or shut up" argument makes no sense. There isn't a lot of value to be gained by more volunteers going back and trying to clean it up. That's just throwing good resources after bad, and they could be put to better use working on unreleased adventures by Pacesetter and others.

Posts: 2351 · Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 pm

deimos3428 wrote:

and they could be put to better use working on unreleased adventures by Pacesetter and others.

You are going to have to pry those unfinished adventures from my cold, dead hands before I let any of those guys touch them!

Now, if they want to help in the fubared distribution system I made, well... Wink

Posts: 2950 · Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:57 pm

bbarsh wrote:

You are going to have to pry those unfinished adventures from my cold, dead hands before I let any of those guys touch them!

Well I meant "these guys", not "those guys". Very Happy

The point being there are many other worthwhile projects that need volunteers.

Posts: 2351 · Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:57 pm

deimos3428 wrote:

Well I meant "these guys", not "those guys". Very Happy

The point being there are many other worthwhile projects that need volunteers.

In that case, forget everything I just said... Very Happy

Although, strictly speaking, I think L4 could be edited - and by edited, I mean hacked, slashed and tuned - and revised into a fantastic module. It never will be, of course. What startles me the most is the admission that things were let go because "time" was too precious or scarce. (ahem 4 years + Shocked

). Ok, I can handle that. But then to go on and eliminate any chance of salvation is what I can't wrap my head around.

They have certainly circled the wagons over at DF on it, and that is unfortunate. Simply that they feel it is necessary is somewhat disturbing. Take the damn beer goggles off and drink some coffee.

This entire event was similar to the super fan who finally gets to meet his hero only to discover that he is steriod-injecting, wife-beating, drunken slob. There are some doors better left closed, and just maybe, those old doors at TSR should stay chained shut...

Posts: 4264 · Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:57 am

Having begun on the proofread, I tend to agree. I am tasked with proofreading the text alone. Not making it into a logical or usable product. This would indeed be a major undertaking. As it is, the product is very linear and PCs are railroaded through a story where their decisions to act are already predermined and scripted for them. No choice or game play. Just sit there and role the dice and do what the DM tells you to.

It might have a lot of Len Lakofka's imagery and feel about it, particularly later on in the 'thing' (don't really feel you can call it a module), but as a product or something to draw pleasure or gameplay from, it has been totally destroyed by someone.

DF would have us believe that that's the way Len wanted it and that's the product that he crafted. I have no reason to believe that that is not the case. All I can say is that Len produces very poor work, has little understanding of Dungeons & Dragons or the principles and mechanics of producing enjoyable gameplay, and I see now why he has always been and remains a marginal writer who got lucky and managed to get published once and then failed to ever monopolise on that situation.

I can only imagine his reletive reclusivity is necessary from the RPG community, lest the truth be found out, and I can now see what L3 is the way it is. TSR/WoTC made the bast product they could given the materials the author gave them to work with. Likewise, let's no longer lambast DF. They to have done the best they can with the materials the auther has given them to work with.

Posts: 199 · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:40 am

Guy Fullerton wrote:

Update: I finished the edits on the Companion, and threw it over the wall to Gnarley and Lenard. They blessed it, and it will get posted for download in a day or two.

It looks like the new, re-edited version of L4C The Lendore Isle Companion is now available for download. (Go to DF and download it again from the same place you got it last time; it will be the new version.)