Gencon 2009 (T&T Bidding in their own auction)

Posts: 83 · Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:39 pm

Okay, I have no problem with T&T bidding at their own auction, they helped raise prices on several of my itmes and in turn out-bid me a few times... HOWEVER!

They run the auction and earn 15% of the sale price as a rebate on items they win. That means if I'm willing to bid $95 on an item and they win with a $100 bid, they recoup $15 +$1 listing fee from the seller resulting in a purchase price of $84.

Do that over and over again and they wind up with a huge savings and yes, they bid a whole lot and won fairly frequently. I know they outbid me several times and once I got home I did some math (yeah, I take notes) and judging from when I won vs. when I lost, I belive the vast majority of their wins were within that 15% rebate threshold.

I would like to have this addressed prior to the next Gencon OR Origins auciton. First, I much appreciate the guy sitting in the front center wearing the T&T shirt, everything was right up front. That's great. However, if T&T wins I propose the seller does not pay the 15% and simply gets the full auction price. Of course I have no pull with T&T except the voice of an avid auction addict. Evil or Very Mad

Posts: 196 · Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:59 pm

Forgive my ignorance. You say "at their own auction". I assume they run it or finance it or something then? Would there be an auction, or as nice a one, if it weren't for them? If not, then they deserve the kick-back, since I'm sure that 15% deal is a large reason they are willing to run/support it (or whatever it is they do).

Can someone clarify for me T&T's relationship to the auction?

Posts: 4545 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:06 am

Gus Landt wrote:

Forgive my ignorance. You say "at their own auction". I assume they run it or finance it or something then? Would there be an auction, or as nice a one, if it weren't for them? If not, then they deserve the kick-back, since I'm sure that 15% deal is a large reason they are willing to run/support it (or whatever it is they do).

Can someone clarify for me T&T's relationship to the auction?

They now run the auction, and have paid for the right to do so (I have no idea how long their contract runs, if it renews every year, etc). Frank would probably have more insight than most. But the auctioneers work for them I assume, and they take care of all the set up, etc.

I don't know how you could keep T&T from bidding in the auction...if it wasn't above board, they sure as hell could do it underneath the table and no one would ever know.

My main complaint is they really need to restructure the charity auction. For the second year in a row it has caused the Saturday night auction to creep into Sunday morning, and not by just a little: this year was ridiculous, and cost both T&T and those with items getting auctioned a lot of money (there were only a couple dozen diehards left at the auction this year for the rares on Saturday night).

Mike B.
Mike B.

Posts: 83 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:58 am

You both missed the point and are reading some things into my post that are not there... I have no problem with Troll and Toad making money on the auction by charging a commission. However, that commission should NOT give them an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE when BIDDING on items.
Simply put: if I bid $95 but a Troll and Toad bids $100 and wins: why should they in effect only pay $85 after the 15% commission is considered? It is an unfair advantage. I’m sure some Gencon and Origins auction fans don’t care; but I’m sure some do ~ or would if they realized the issue…
Consider this; in all states that require Auctioneers to be LICENSED, it is a violation of the law for the Auctioneer OR THE FIRM running the auction to bid on ANY ITEM. Why? Because the commission either gives them an unfair advantage or, if they are the last to drop out, all they've done is raise the price and thereby increase the value of the item and subsequently the amount of commission earned. Need I post links to lawsuits and/or state by state laws? Thankfully Indiana does not require a license to run an auction but the precedence is set.
By the way, Troll and Toad had their bidder in a Troll and Toad T-Shirt right up front so everyone could see who was bidding; nothing was done under the table. As far as I know (and from what I’ve heard) the auctioneers are all volunteers; not paid a dime. I’ve no issue with any auctioneer bidding because they (as far as I know) have no unfair advantage. All indications are that Troll and Toad is an upright organization. It is my opinion that this unfair advantage is an oversight but that does not mean it should not be fixed.
Yes, I know, Weekend Warrior (the previous owner) also bid on items at the auction but not in the volume that Troll and Toad did in 2008.
Troll and Toad makes a tone of cash in four days by running the auction; and good for them. They don't "need" an unfair advantage over other bidders to make running the auction "worth while". I, as a bidder, need a level playing field. If I have to beat Troll and Toad by 15% then I may as well keep my card down whenever I see Troll and Toad has their card up. Considering the number of auctions in which I was the sole bidder against them, they’ll get some REALLY killer deals in 2009! That will really suck for some unlucky sellers…

Posts: 1291 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:09 am

Not that I am ever likely to go to a GenCon auction I do see that Wags has a point. They effectively pay commision/fees to themselves so they end up paying less than the losing winner was willing to pay. Seemingly they are up front about bidding, so perhaps they should install a 'goodwill' system - perhaps something like pledging the fees for any item they win in their own auction to the designated charity. That way the whole thing is completely transparent, and even more money is raised for a good cause - win/win all round.

Posts: 636 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:10 am

T&T also violated the rules of Visa, Mastercard, American Express, and Discover by charging a fee to anyone who paid for their auction winnings with a credit card. The merchant agreements specifically say that merchants CANNOT charge a premium on transactions using their cards. Giving a discount for other payment methods is also prohibited The reason being the credit card companies don't want their cards less attractive to the consumer.

I've been very tempted to report this to my credit card company.

Posts: 604 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:03 pm

[slightly off topic]

I've seen this at a couple gas stations in the area. For the privilege of paying at the pump you get charged an extra 15 cents a gallon.

Posts: 83 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:19 pm

Frank M. replied to this thread on another Auction thread. Here's what he wrote...
###################
T&T Bidding (other thread): The company that runs the Auction business is a partnership between Jon Huston (who also owns T&T) and Bruce Carson (IT specialist).
Troll & Toad Does Not Run The Auction. The Partnership is a separate entity (that's its actual name), has its own books, makes its own profits/losses, and thus should not be muddled with T&T Corporation. And it's not a false/paper distinction; Bruce is not an employee of T&T or Huston; he's a computer jock in Massachusetts (T&T is in Kentucky). When T&T bids, they pay The Partnership. As a result, your logic about unfairness or an edge to T&T is a bit off. They do have an edge in having reps bidding throughout the auction hours, when most folks take breaks at least, but as far as the financials go, they're precisely the same as other bidders.
####################

This sounds logical...

Posts: 2339 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:49 pm

I still wouldn't say that "they're precisely the same as other bidders" though. I think all this means is that instead of getting a 15% discount it might only be 7.5%. Since he is invested in both T&T as a bidder and the Partnership as the seller, most would still see this as a conflict of interest. The bottom line after following the paper trail is still that he is paying himself.

Posts: 2130 · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:03 pm

Actually of T&T wins an item (overbidding Wags or anybody else) the seller actually get more cash. If they were not there then the item would have went cheaper.

It is therefore benificail for them to be there for the seller. They do get a samll discount I guess but really, the seller gets more and is this not the point!