The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth

Posts: 186 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:25 pm

I was surfing the web looking for any missed episodes of some of my favorite tv programs when I stumbled on a torrent for The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth, strange to see something that rare scanned and available as a pdf.

Doubt that it will effect prices of the original hardcopy, still it was an odd find...anyway back to your original programing.

~jeff

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:39 pm

Probably won't affect the geniune paper-copy value too much, except that fakes will almost certainly be printed now. Wonder how difficult it would be to shut that site down...

Posts: 27 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:48 pm

That particular file has been out on the net for months of the original trournament copy. I've seen it posted on newsgroups and torrent sites your not getting the genie back in the bottle on this one.

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:41 pm

stephenf wrote:

That particular file has been out on the net for months of the original trournament copy. I've seen it posted on newsgroups and torrent sites your not getting the genie back in the bottle on this one.

Yeah, I was more wondering how hard it would be to crap flood the heck out of those bastards. The data's long gone. Wink

Posts: 46 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:48 pm

deimos3428 wrote:

Probably won't affect the geniune paper-copy value too much, except that fakes will almost certainly be printed now. Wonder how difficult it would be to shut that site down...

please forgive what is probably an ignorant question. but since it is long out of print (and probably poorly and obviously scanned) is there really any harm in letting people have a chance to read the original version online?

the main concern is forgery prevention, yes?

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:53 pm

mellmorranth wrote:

please forgive what is probably an ignorant question. but since it is long out of print (and probably poorly and obviously scanned) is there really any harm in letting people have a chance to read the original version online?

Harm? Depends on whom you ask. It is certainly illegal. If you want to read the contents, go buy S4, pony up the cash, or spend your life in used bookstores praying.

Forgery protection is a big concern in this community as well, particularly on a high-value, easy to forge, particularly rare item such as this one.

Posts: 46 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:30 pm

deimos3428 wrote:

Harm? Depends on whom you ask. It is certainly illegal. If you want to read the contents, go buy S4, pony up the cash, or spend your life in used bookstores praying.

Forgery protection is a big concern in this community as well, particularly on a high-value, easy to forge, particularly rare item such as this one.

ok, i think i see your point of view. it sounds like the legal issue is of more concern that the forgery issue. in other words, no one would object if wizards decided to post an accurate pdf of the original version on their web site?

i kinda wish they would do stuff like that. maybe change the font type or something to discourage forgery. i'd get more out of that than the map of the week or whatever they're posting now. still, i guess map of the week is more likely to get people buying new books.

Posts: 1348 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:22 pm

I'd object - I prefer real versions, especially of something that is hard to find. Makes owning it actually mean something. Anyone, with time, can find a pdf of something... that means nothing, and has no satisfaction.

Posts: 4545 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:01 pm

mellmorranth wrote:

ok, i think i see your point of view. it sounds like the legal issue is of more concern that the forgery issue. in other words, no one would object if wizards decided to post an accurate pdf of the original version on their web site?

i kinda wish they would do stuff like that. maybe change the font type or something to discourage forgery. i'd get more out of that than the map of the week or whatever they're posting now. still, i guess map of the week is more likely to get people buying new books.

Publishing the Orange B3 as a free download didn't hurt the value a bit...ditto with downloads such as the original white box. It's really sad these can't be offered as some sort of pdf, but don't hold your breath. I'm a frequent downloader of items via bit torrent, and more often than not they are items I already have, just nice to have them in the convenient pdf form.

I wouldn't have a problem with downloading a copy of this for my own perusual...I'm sure not going to pony up 1500 bones for it. I know technically it's illegal, but technically it's illegal to go five miles over the speed limit, etc. I would be much more upset about those guys that burn cds with, say, all the 3E books on them, because that's property still for sale in stores. Something that was never in print and last seen 30 years ago in limited qualities just doesn't enflame my senses. I know people feel otherwise, but if I waited for everything I ever wanted to become legally available, some never would (specifially, pulp magazines that I collect) because there isn't an audience enough to justify printing it up and selling it.

I've said this many times before, regarding the cheap publishing standards of some of the older RPG collectibles, I'm surprised counterfeiting hasn't happened before. Not everyone that owns a copy of these is necessarily a trustworthy individual. Just because someone pays a premium for an item is no guarantee they aren't going to make money on the side, and with the advances in self publishing it could be quite easy to duplicate some items. The point being this was probably in issue way before any sort of download was available.

Mike B.

Posts: 186 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:02 pm

Just curious, was the original tourney mod printed on bright white paper or off white/yellowish as depicted on the acaeum archive scan (I broke down and d/l'd the pdf to see if it was legit or a hoax...seems legit but i have nothing to compare it to) I ask because the pdf images are shockingly bright white (possibly a pdf of a photocopy of the original?)

~jeff

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:59 pm

mellmorranth wrote:

ok, i think i see your point of view. it sounds like the legal issue is of more concern that the forgery issue. in other words, no one would object if wizards decided to post an accurate pdf of the original version on their web site?

Well, in my opinion the forgery issue is the larger one, actually. It's unlikely that someone with the cash to buy a copy would be fooled by a home-printed version if presented with one in person, but with a PDF of the module it would be trivial to do a fake eBay auction or the like. Complete with high-quality images.

And yes, I'm one of those people that doesn't think every damn thing should be available to the masses via PDF. It's bad enough the OCE is available on the cheap, and that one's legal.

Regarding Tsojconth's paper colour, the cover is similar to the background of the Acaeum webpages in hue. Definitely not white.

Posts: 4545 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:25 am

deimos3428 wrote:

Well, in my opinion the forgery issue is the larger one, actually. It's unlikely that someone with the cash to buy a copy would be fooled by a home-printed version if presented with one in person, but with a PDF of the module it would be trivial to do a fake eBay auction or the like. Complete with high-quality images.

And yes, I'm one of those people that doesn't think every damn thing should be available to the masses via PDF. It's bad enough the OCE is available on the cheap, and that one's legal.

Regarding Tsojconth's paper colour, the cover is similar to the background of the Acaeum webpages in hue. Definitely not white.

Deimos, I downloaded the scan...it's crappy. No one is going to make a copy with it. And the PDF even has a helpful sticky note on the front cover scan to make that pretty much worthless in terms of using it to print up a fake Tsojconth.

And my point was, regardless if a PDF is available or not, owners of the item are already able to make as many cheap counterfeits as they can...or is everyone that pays $1000 for a module automatically above suspicion for doing so? Just because someone owns a copy doesn't make them less likely to make a quick buck copying it, as a matter of fact they may even be MORE likely to so they can recoup the cost of the item. So really, the pdf being available IMO hasn't made it any more likely we'll see the market flooded with fake tournament modules.

And I'm one of those people that thinks EVERYTHING should be available to the masses via cheap or free pdfs....the information wants to be free, man!!! Very Happy

Mike B.

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:07 am

Badmike wrote:

And my point was, regardless if a PDF is available or not, owners of the item are already able to make as many cheap counterfeits as they can

Yes, but the number of people that could potentially do so just skyrocketed. The upper bound on legitimate owners used to be 300. Good to know the scan isn't very good, though.

If absolutely everything is available cheaply/free, there's little point in collecting it. Besides, the information in the Tsojconth is cheaply available in S4. It's specific presentation is not. Wink

Posts: 4545 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:48 am

deimos3428 wrote:

Yes, but the number of people that could potentially do so just skyrocketed. The upper bound on legitimate owners used to be 300. Good to know the scan isn't very good, though.

If absolutely everything is available cheaply/free, there's little point in collecting it. Besides, the information in the Tsojconth is cheaply available in S4. It's specific presentation is not. Wink

Didn't take into account the larger volume of owners, but rest assured as I said this scan is not a professional job...it's barely legible. Smile

We are safe for now....

As for easily available, I go by the comic book model. Having cheap easy to buy versions of, say Spiderman #1, Fantastic Four #1 or XMen #1 available hasn't driven down the price of said original collectibles...as a matter of fact a case can be made that the presence of said reprints keeps interest in the items high, and may even ELEVATE the price....the same way as, say, The Acaeum Effect may drive up a price on a certain collectible RPG item just by being mentioned in these pages.

I think a very good example is the OCE pdfs which first went on sale about a year ago...since then, the average price of a white box in general has RISEN $25-$50.

If you talk to collectors time and again they say they collect because they want THAT ACTUAL item...not a reprinted or cheap version. There's a cachet in owning the original version, otherwise certain field of collecting wouldn't even exist anymore (comics being one) because of the easy availability of reprints.

Mike B.

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:26 am

Badmike wrote:

I think a very good example is the OCE pdfs which first went on sale about a year ago...since then, the average price of a white box in general has RISEN $25-$50.

Could've been even higher, though. I'd say a lot of that upward pressure had nothing to do with the PDF, rather occuring in spite of it, and probably had more to do with inflation and Gary passing.

I guess it boils down to which figure you believe is higher: the number of people who would bid on and/or buy the real thing after they've acquired the data in digital form, or the number of people who would have bid on/bought it not given any other option.

Posts: 4545 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:48 pm

deimos3428 wrote:

Could've been even higher, though. I'd say a lot of that upward pressure had nothing to do with the PDF, rather occuring in spite of it, and probably had more to do with inflation and Gary passing.

I guess it boils down to which figure you believe is higher: the number of people who would bid on and/or buy the real thing after they've acquired the data in digital form, or the number of people who would have bid on/bought it not given any other option.

I'll give you this, Lemur-Man: I DO think the presence of Pdfs of marginal or cheaper products (say, a pdf of B1) lowers the prices for these items. A lot of the buyers might have just been casual gamers wanting to satisfy their curiousity; why pay $15 for B1 when you can download a free or cheap copy?

However, I can't for my life see someone willing to spend $1500 just to satisfy their curiousity about something like ST1, especially when everyone who knows anything about collecting has already heard the adventure sucks. Someone's going to pay almost two grand to say "Oh, wow, everyone was right, this thing blows"? No, they are paying for the pleasure of owning a rare collectible, bragging rights, as well as an investment (stuff like ST1 doesn't seem to go down in price, ever).

It has never been proven to me in any regard that pdfs have an effect on rare rpg sale rates, and I still open mindedly await the proof. As a matter of fact, prices keep rising and it's unprovable whether or not they would be "higher" if a pdf wasn't in the picture....what's an observable fact is that prices have risen, period.

Personally I'll never bid on a Lost Tsojconth whether or not a pdf is available, so put me in the category of not affecting me. I'm just not interested. Is there anyone here that legitimately called off their search for a $1000 or more collectible RPG item because of a pdf of that item being available? Seriously, I'd like to hear from them. I would estimate the number is pretty low, if any.

In the next few years pretty much everything RPG related will be easily available in pdf form, so whether we like it or like, like 4th edition, it's going to happen...anyone who thinks there is an effect on prices, and collects these for investment purposes, has been warned....

Mike B.

Posts: 2559 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:28 pm

I for one would love to have a Tsojconth. Moreso than a tourney Inverness or Tamo actually. Even with a decent .pdf of one out there I wouldnt expect the price to drop at all. I have buttloads of .pdf's for common RPG items and if anything they allow me to check an item out first so I can decide if the contents are worth the cost. At least that is how I made the decision to pick up the bulk of the Dark Sun material. I grabbed some .pdf's, browsed through them, and decided that I liked them....so I bought them.

I have a .pdf of Palace of the Vampire Queen. Pretty much one of the crappiest modules I have ever read through. I still want one though! Smile

Posts: 579 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:15 pm

I say PDF copies can damage the current market, but not the collectible market (or at least to a very small extent). If I want a copy of the latest Player's Handbook "because I want to play", then I could get it on PDF and avoid buying it, thus damaging the company which produces it (which deserves that to the last drop -- err, sorry). Same thing applies if I want a copy of an old Greyhawk module "because I want players to play it", though in this case I would slightly damage the collectible market. But if I want something "because I want to own it", then I won't care for a PDF copy.

This is especially true for most of the higher-value items, because, actually, a lot of the modules which sell for a lot of money are crap, so there is no reason other than collecting (or reselling, but that has more or less the same effect) to have them.

Posts: 161 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:23 pm

I know more people that purchased the 4e books after reading the PDFs and getting their interest piqued than people who got the PDFs to avoid buying the books or who got the PDFs and then decided not to buy 4e.

PDFs expand the market by making the information more affordable to more people and creating more interest and making more collectors. Think of them as marketing: you want as many eyes on your product as possible.

PDFs are a good thing, in terms of collection. Rare items gain value. Common items lose value.

Posts: 1440 · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:30 pm

Badmike wrote:

I'll give you this, Lemur-Man: I DO think the presence of Pdfs of marginal or cheaper products (say, a pdf of B1) lowers the prices for these items. A lot of the buyers might have just been casual gamers wanting to satisfy their curiousity; why pay $15 for B1 when you can download a free or cheap copy?

However, I can't for my life see someone willing to spend $1500 just to satisfy their curiousity about something like ST1, especially when everyone who knows anything about collecting has already heard the adventure sucks. Someone's going to pay almost two grand to say "Oh, wow, everyone was right, this thing blows"? No, they are paying for the pleasure of owning a rare collectible, bragging rights, as well as an investment (stuff like ST1 doesn't seem to go down in price, ever).

It has never been proven to me in any regard that pdfs have an effect on rare rpg sale rates, and I still open mindedly await the proof. As a matter of fact, prices keep rising and it's unprovable whether or not they would be "higher" if a pdf wasn't in the picture....what's an observable fact is that prices have risen, period.

Personally I'll never bid on a Lost Tsojconth whether or not a pdf is available, so put me in the category of not affecting me. I'm just not interested. Is there anyone here that legitimately called off their search for a $1000 or more collectible RPG item because of a pdf of that item being available? Seriously, I'd like to hear from them. I would estimate the number is pretty low, if any.

In the next few years pretty much everything RPG related will be easily available in pdf form, so whether we like it or like, like 4th edition, it's going to happen...anyone who thinks there is an effect on prices, and collects these for investment purposes, has been warned....

Mike B.

yup... what you said.
Cool

Quote:

I'll give you this, Lemur-Man: I DO think the presence of Pdfs of marginal or cheaper products (say, a pdf of B1) lowers the prices for these items. A lot of the buyers might have just been casual gamers wanting to satisfy their curiousity; why pay $15 for B1 when you can download a free or cheap copy?

I do not wholeheartedly agree with this statement though.
TSR Modules have been selling for far above the common rate I would expect for a long while now.