Back when D & D was evil...

Posts: 4393 · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:38 pm

serleran wrote:

Yes. The idiocy of the US knows no bounds.

Religious fanatics like to have something periodically to "whip up the troops" so they can get donations. It can be D&D, rock music, Heavy Metal music, video games, violent movies, porn, cabbage patch dolls, whatever is current and something "those crazy kids" are dabbling with fits the bill.

My wife had a best friend that was seriously upset when she heard she was going to marry me, because my wife had casually mentioned I played D&D and sold D&D stuff online. She gave her a copy of Michalson's Lambs to the Slaughter, an unintentionally hilarious book dealing with "hidden" forms of satanic influences, even in such innocuous looking stuff as Carebears and Smurfs (I'm not making this up). There's a chapter on D&D that makes it very clear the author had both never read anything D&D related nor actually played or seen anyone play the game.

Ironically, the book did the opposite, reading the obviously wild eyed ludicrous claims from the author, my wife decided that all these claims were so much baloney, once I was able to contrast my behavior with certain "examples" in the book.

Anyway as you have probably noticed, the demonization of D&D has fallen pretty far off the map since video games and such have taken over as youthful pasttimes....

Mike B.

Posts: 4393 · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:42 pm

guerret wrote:

Another amazing thing is that so far I haven't read a single story about trying to show that D&D was not evil by showing a gaming session. It would be the most logical solution. After all, Europe overcame religious naivety through logic...

Wouldn't work. You see, from what I've read and been told by religious fanatics, just the act of playing is demonic without any overt worshipping of spirits. Merely "pretending" to dabble in spells and such is just as damning in many religious theory as actually trying to cast a spell. It's not even the intent, it's the act itself. A "example" session would prove nothing to a true believer except that they were right, you are a damned and lost soul for allowing yourself to get involved in such activity.... Rolling Eyes

Mike B.

Posts: 3132 · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:16 pm

Well I'm here to save you all, just send your books, dice, and miniatures to me. Twisted Evil

ShaneG.

Posts: 189 · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:22 pm

guerret wrote:

Now, should I really think that the US is so full of religiously naive people?

"Full" like "almost everyone" or "a strong majority"? No.

"Far more than any other '1st world' nation that I know of and possessed of enough political clout to really hold the country back on social issues" Yeah, that's us.

Posts: 44 · Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:25 pm

I remember watching the 60 minutes expose on D&D with my mother. Honestly was just thinking "Oooh! I've got that one!" when they were showing the various books.

My mom bought into the "Satanic Panic" about 50/50 (much like she bought into the church itself). But she still maintained that it was unhealthy and used it for leverage. If my report card was bad, the books got locked away. Of course, by then, I had a stash of duplicates she knew nothing about.

But, where I live, it was a lot worse for other kids. And still is, sometimes. A guy who was in my very first gaming group in 6th grade still lives up the road from me and has two sons. His oldest approached his school about starting a gaming club and was literally shouted down by a teacher! In front of his dad and the guy that was the Principal of the school when we went there. But, the ex-Principal shut her up by telling her about how when we were there, he saw kids who never showed any interest in reading or studying pull their grades up by 2 or more letter grades because of D&D. And he put his foot down (as head of the school board, or whatever) and OKd the game club.

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:44 am

Badmike wrote:

You see, from what I've read and been told by religious fanatics
Mike B.

Speaking as a religious fanatic....let me interject:

The violence, focus on ugly thoughts and deeds and the frightening illustrations in D&D books (which you and I hardly even notice) is a legitimate concern for some people.

Remember that it was not only religious fanatics who were frightened and/or bemused by D&D.

Lots of people who never darkened the door of a church had the general impression that D&D would drive you nuts and cause you to kill people.

According to James Ward, the chief villains in this pack of misperceptions were.....defense attorneys!

During that particular era, every teenager who commited a violent crime had a lawyer who tried to claim that D&D made him do it. According to James, a part of his job during that era was to travel about, testifying for the prosecution, to establish that D&D a) was a game, and b) wouldn't harm a squirrel, much less a teenage boy.

While I am sure there were some nefarious people who made money off of slandering D&D, most of the whacko claims were made by people with little to gain financially...but who felt compelled to warn people about a perceived threat. Or, in possibly the most heinous case...a non-religious fanatic mother who needed to absolve herself from guilt over her son's suicide.

Ironically, it is the non-religious fanatics who give me most trouble as a teacher. These are the people who believe that a child wearing pink camo pants is evidence of an unhealthy obsession with violence. These are the people who want me to use illustrations of pirates...so long as none of the pirates have weapons.

These are also the people who routinely make comments about Christians that they would never make about any other group.

My theory is that they are so used to talking to each other...and making extreme statements that are not challenged...that they have ceased to listen to the hateful things they say.

Posts: 568 · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:57 am

I'd say that FC has a point to it. I personally know of a boy who slit his classmate's throat, almost killing her, "just for fun", and the defense (which was successful in avoiding him the jail) was centered on the fact that he listened to Eminem's music and other habits.

However, I don't think that defense attorneys are able to radically move the mass mindset.

As for the effect on video games, I see today there is much hysteria, but definitely not at the level you are mentioning, and not in religious terms. It appears to be more on a social level, something like "people can become dangerous so you must censor that game" more than related to satanism. But there's also the fact that interest in satanism has waned somewhat since the Seventies.

Posts: 144 · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:38 am

guerret wrote:

But there's also the fact that interest in satanism has waned somewhat since the Seventies.

So what am I going to do with all my robes and goat skulls? Laughing

Formcritic et al:
In my experience as a catholic, raised in that background in the NE US during the 80s when this was all going on, the catholic community there didn't seem quite as bothered by all this. In fact, I attended a catholic school in my junior and senior year of HS, and nobody seemed to mention this or care too much about it. I mean, at school you were still considered a nerdy dork for playing and might get spitballs shot at you at lunch. But I don't remember anybody telling us we'd burn in hell or anything. Confused

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the only people I knew of first hand who were convinced the game was evil were the parents of a friend who happened to be Baptists from a very strict order.

As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south. And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

Please understand I don't mean to knock the protestant folks. It just seemed to me that, as far as the whole D&D=evil issue, the catholic church was a lot more sensible about the issue, or at least much less concerned about it. At least they were in my neck of the woods.

Posts: 1428 · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:52 am

Agent Cooper wrote:

So what am I going to do with all my robes and goat skulls? Laughing

The practice has waned but it has not gone exitinct.

E-Bay em!

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:58 pm

Agent Cooper wrote:

So what am I going to do with all my robes and goat skulls? Laughing

Formcritic et al:
In my experience as a catholic, raised in that background in the NE US during the 80s when this was all going on, the catholic community there didn't seem quite as bothered by all this. In fact, I attended a catholic school in my junior and senior year of HS, and nobody seemed to mention this or care too much about it. I mean, at school you were still considered a nerdy dork for playing and might get spitballs shot at you at lunch. But I don't remember anybody telling us we'd burn in hell or anything. Confused

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the only people I knew of first hand who were convinced the game was evil were the parents of a friend who happened to be Baptists from a very strict order.

As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south. And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

Please understand I don't mean to knock the protestant folks. It just seemed to me that, as far as the whole D&D=evil issue, the catholic church was a lot more sensible about the issue, or at least much less concerned about it. At least they were in my neck of the woods.

This is very much true. Catholics are much less prone to this type of hysteria...partly because they rely more on Church authority than Protestants do. They would just calmly wait for word on the matter...and since Catholic leaders have more to think about than the latest hysteria.......

We Protestants are just the opposite. It's not that we don't have a Pope...it's that everyone is his own Pope. (I just made that up by the way...not bad.)

Morons among the Catholics wait to be given the word on what to do.

Morons among the Protestants declare themselves Pope and begin to spread the word.

We non-morons find this painful and we don't like to be seen with these people, but what're ya gonna do? Try reasoning with Brother Moron the Pope and his wife, the Popista. Brother Moron seriously thinks God talks to him...and that means whatever you say must come from Satan.

Fortunately, these people really are just a visible and vocal minority. It really isn't fun getting lumped in with them.

Posts: 1165 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:06 am

Perhaps we could all vote for Mark to be the head-pseudo-pope and he can just take care of all this religous nonsense pronto Very Happy

(Not a dig at religion - I genuinely think Marks up to the job Laughing

)

Posts: 4393 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:12 am

Agent Cooper wrote:

As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south. And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

.

And that's where I live, smack dab in the middle of the bible belt. So yeh, Religious Fanatics is what I said and what I meant. You guys on the west and east coasts just have no idea....the extent their ravings and practices affect the way life is lived in small towns in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, etc. You have to understnad there are a large amount of people in these parts that truly believe you will burn in hell if you don't go to their church, not just their religious denomination, but their personal church. And that's coming from someone that considers himself religious.

Back in the day 100% of the D&D hatred I saw was directed by reasons of religion. I"m not saying there weren't other instigators, but not in my neck of the woods.

Mike B.

Posts: 1161 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:29 am

Badmike wrote:

You have to understnad there are a large amount of people in these parts that truly believe you will burn in hell if you don't go to their church, not just their religious denomination, but their personal church. And that's coming from someone that considers himself religious.

We have evolved with strong pattern recognition abilities and desire to surround ourselves with people that have similar outlooks to our own.

This manifests in a basic way as tribalism, family units, villages, churches and favorite sports teams.

In our modern age of large cities and being surrounded by so many strangers, people look for that small circle of people that will agree with them and understand them and build a level of trust.

When one member of the tribe denounces somebody or something it is almost mandatory that the rest of that group march in lockstep.

There is no reasoning behind it, just raw emotion and the desire to protect "the tribe" from an external threat, even if it is not clearly understood.

That is where racism comes from, that is where xenophobia comes from and that is why the fear of the unknown is so strong.

(just my 2 cents worth) Very Happy

Posts: 497 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:45 am

Hang with me. I am about a spew a bunch of generalities.

Most people in America are becoming less concerned with religion. Fewer people are going to church, people are giving less at church, the average age of people at church is increasing and there are fewer churches overall. Along with this, people are not as religious or even spiritual as in the past. There are plenty of exceptions, but the overall trend is obvious to pollsters and me.

I have heard it said that America is becoming more like Europe in terms of its religiosity and spirituality. Morality overall is declining as well. There is an increased emphasis in entertainment and the entertainment is increasing in sexuality and violence.

When D&D came out, there were a higher percentage of people in American society concerned about anything that potentially had to do with evil/Satan/witchcraft/etc... There are still people who freak out over anything they don't understand, but the rationale usually has less to do with religion and spiritual concerns. Yes, there are exceptions, but the nation is moving in this direction as Europe moved (and may be still moving) in this direction. This is more true in certain parts of the country than others. The Bible belt is hanging on to religion more than most parts of America.

This process of secularization is common to any business, any civilization, or any institution of higher education. Look at Harvard and Yale. They used to be seminaries. Yeah, they still have divinity schools, but their education has way more to do with the cognitive than the practical. It's a good education, but it has evolved into something very different from its original intent. To be blunt, I highly suspect it's founding fathers would be horrified.

Secularization is not all bad. In fact, it makes sense. Some people try to reverse secularization with "revivals" and "remember the good old days." Far as I can see, the good old days weren't all that good. People died for lack of antibiotics. Cars could only go 30 miles an hour. Slavery was still in existence. There was no D&D! No matter how far you go back, the improvements we see today are indeed amazing, miraculous even. I don't want to go back.

As our society has improved medically, economically, educationally, and so forth, there is less of a "need" for what we don't have. Religion is an idea/phenomenon/whatever that fills gaps for lots of people. And, even though we see and know of lots of examples of where religion has done harm, I personally believe there are more examples of where religion has done good, even great good. And the times when religion has done great good has inspired me profoundly.

We can bash catholics for their pedophilia predators, but look at all the hospitals, orphanages, and schools they created! Not that one incident of pedophilia is acceptable, but I think it's easy to argue that it wasn't the religion that resulted in the pedophilia, but the lack thereof. Religion can go crazy stupid, but it also can go wildly wonderful.

Also, there are stupid people, even stupid fanatics, of all colors and stripes and cultures. I don't know about you, but I know about some D&D people who embarrass me to no end(Coug, for example). Overall, I find D&D people to be above average in intelligence and creativity. I love The Acaeum because there are some great people on these forums who share one of my passions. But there are all kinds of people in our hobby.

So, here's my point. Religious expression is changing in America, and there has been and is a spectrum of expressions and viewpoints. Do we judge religion by the best it has to offer or the worst? Not that we weigh one against the other, but is what good religion has to offer so good that it's worth having? Question

For me, the answer is yes, and I hope you won't lump me in with those who you don't like.

Finally, I have found in my life that there are some people who have been so hurt by religion that they just can't get over it, and it has colored their view so thoroughly, they will likely never change. It's not that I believe they can't change, but changing would be incredibly difficult. If you are reading this, and you had something like that happen to you, I wish it hadn't. There are no words I have to console you or change your mind. There isn't anything I can say. Even "I'm sorry." doesn't cut it by a long shot. If you want me to say "I'm sorry" I will. I hope the rest of your life is wonderful.

Posts: 1161 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:04 am

Most rational people should be concerned about the influence of fundamentalists in society.

It is easy to ignore it by reasoning that they have the rights to their beliefs, but in many cases they try to impose their viewpoint on others. Especially in cases of using a backdoor into science classes through intelligent design.

The USA is not the only country that has fundamentalist and Christianity is not the only religion that has extremists.

Here is a link to a web site called Fundamentalists Say the Darndest Things (Top 100).

http://fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

Good luck getting even halfway through that list without beginning to worry about the people around you. Shocked

Posts: 342 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:11 pm

jasonw1239 wrote:

Most rational people should be concerned about the influence of fundamentalists in society.

It is easy to ignore it by reasoning that they have the rights to their beliefs, but in many cases they try to impose their viewpoint on others. Especially in cases of using a backdoor into science classes through intelligent design.

The USA is not the only country that has fundamentalist and Christianity is not the only religion that has extremists.

Here is a link to a web site called Fundamentalists Say the Darndest Things (Top 100).

http://fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

Good luck getting even halfway through that list without beginning to worry about the people around you. Shocked

Worrying about the people around you is a sensible precaution.

I'm reminded of what John Cleese said on an interview show about the protests surrounding "The Life of Brian"

The movie had originally been booked into around 100 theaters but after the protests it went to over 700. Cleese wanted to thank the protestors because in his words "They made me a rich man.".

The protests against D&D certainly helped the game far more than it hurt it.

Of course you have to be careful. Look what happened to "Father Ted".

Posts: 4691 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:27 pm

Those are some fucked-up people, Jason.
It's been my experience that the more deeply religious a person is, the more likely he/she is to attempt to cram their beliefs down others' throats, in whatever way possible. This is a holdover from long ago; organized religions drummed the idea into their followers' heads that they were the "one true religion" and all others had to convert or be lost (or killed). The fundamentals of this are quite sound: successful cults inevitably involve brainwashing the members into thinking they are collectively different in some way, and need to stay together. And after all, any religion is nothing more than a cult.
There's a lot of media play about "radical" Muslims, but the fact of the matter is that the Quran specifically directs Muslims to kill nonbelievers. So does the Bible, although not as openly as the Quran. Ergo, calling a Muslim a "radical" is somewhat redundant. Even if a particular follower doesn't believe in going on jihad every few weeks, he still believes in a doctrine which, at its roots, promotes and encourages hatred and voilence.
Both religions have been responsible for MILLIONS of deaths throughout history.
Organized religion was originally created as a tool to control the minds and actions of others, and it is alive and well today.

Posts: 4393 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:36 pm

JZavoda wrote:

Worrying about the people around you is a sensible precaution.

I'm reminded of what John Cleese said on an interview show about the protests surrounding "The Life of Brian"

The movie had originally been booked into around 100 theaters but after the protests it went to over 700. Cleese wanted to thank the protestors because in his words "They made me a rich man.".

The protests against D&D certainly helped the game far more than it hurt it.

Of course you have to be careful. Look what happened to "Father Ted".

Same deal with "The Last Temptation of Christ". It would have came and left with a whimper, had the hordes of religious protestors not put it on everyone's "must see" list. Unfortunately, the group-think present in many religions leads to manipulation like this by the media, and they seem to fall for it every time.

Mike B.

Posts: 4393 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:48 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:

Both religions have been responsible for MILLIONS of deaths throughout history.
Organized religion was originally created as a tool to control the minds and actions of others, and it is alive and well today.

But then again Stalinism is ALSO responsible for millions of deaths....and in only 50 years of history. Let's don't even get into Mao's "purges". Religious fanaticism can't be blamed for all the world's massacres.

I agree with the sentiment....but religions also lead to charities, schools, hospitals and more. This coming from someone that sets foot in church....well, never. Ok, weddings and funerals.

The minds at my wife's church may be controlled, but they are motivated towards peaceful and helpful ends. But you are right the "deeper" someone gets into a religion, the more forceful his/her presentation will be. Is this just me, or does anyone else notice these types tend to "burn out" in a period of time? I actually know a couple of former hard core holy roller types that are now burnt out, disillusioned, morally bankrupt athiests/agnostics, only decades removed from their glory days.

Bringing it back to D&D, does anyone else notice that pencil and paper games tend to be overlooked, or considerd "quaint" to those who now spend their fury on violent video games? Shouldn't D&D be as demonic as ever, no matter what the medium? I'm disappointed that now our game has lost it's "edge".... Sad

Mike B.

Posts: 342 · Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:48 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:

Those are some fucked-up people, Jason.
It's been my experience that the more deeply religious a person is, the more likely he/she is to attempt to cram their beliefs down others' throats, in whatever way possible. This is a holdover from long ago; organized religions drummed the idea into their followers' heads that they were the "one true religion" and all others had to convert or be lost (or killed). The fundamentals of this are quite sound: successful cults inevitably involve brainwashing the members into thinking they are collectively different in some way, and need to stay together. And after all, any religion is nothing more than a cult.
There's a lot of media play about "radical" Muslims, but the fact of the matter is that the Quran specifically directs Muslims to kill nonbelievers. So does the Bible, although not as openly as the Quran. Ergo, calling a Muslim a "radical" is somewhat redundant. Even if a particular follower doesn't believe in going on jihad every few weeks, he still believes in a doctrine which, at its roots, promotes and encourages hatred and voilence.
Both religions have been responsible for MILLIONS of deaths throughout history.
Organized religion was originally created as a tool to control the minds and actions of others, and it is alive and well today.

What I find as irritating as organized religion, perhaps even more irritating, are the people who have simply made the term 'Science' their religion without understanding what science actually is, a method of study, and not a philosophical or religious term at all.

But science as a method of study doesn't preclude religion, it simply takes a systematic and verifiable approach in the study of religion. Absolute beliefs, athiest, religious or philosophical end the need for questioning, and questioning is the first step in science.