Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread

Posts: 413 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:08 am

benjoshua wrote:

That's what I suspected. But let's face it, computer games hold some strong advantages. One of them is that you don't need other players to play and/or you don't need other players physically with you. They can be from all over the world! WOW groups with dozens of players from everywhere "game" together to conquer whatever. Plus, the DM'ing is consistent if not boring and you don't need paper, pencils, dice, minis and a ton of other equipment. Of course, if you are really old school, you don't most of that stuff anyway. Shocked

What I'm saying is that, while I love 1e/2e and the commraderie that comes with the bags of potato chips, unexpected farts, late night craziness and everything else, we are going against a stiff challenge which will likely never be overcome.

Not surprisingly, WOTC has turned our game primarily into a business, but they've likely had to do that. When market share is growing, companies can take risks and be highly creative, but when the market share mainstream isn't with us, frankly we're lucky to get much of anything good. I'm not happy about it, but it appears to be reality.

There is hope however. Take a look at this site. We come from all over the world, to communcate and even strengthen our interest. We pool resources, give each other encouragement at deals, help each other avoid idiot sellers and buyers and more. This site is flowing with the changes in the world and our gaming community.

Which brings me to an uncomfortable point. If what I have said so far is basically true, then one of the best things we can do is recruit if we want our style of game to stay and our collections to grow in value. Unless we are actively seeking new people, welcoming them and making this a welome place, then our hobby has a much shorter life.

The problem with that is I'm not really interested in becoming someone I'm not. I like the Acaeum as it is. I think most of us would rather go out of this world as we are than someone or something we're not. And hell, complaining is fun! Anyway, time moves on and so should we. We were a part of history, we had a dang good time and we died. Right? Question

New players and DMs are fine, but I hope there are no recruiting drives. Some people will be drawn toward the style of the early RPG material, unpolished artwork, Gygax's early published adventurtes, Judges Guild. Once those of us for whom it is nostalgia have passed on, it will be those interested in the history of gaming who will keep collecting.

But the internet offers the ability for a resurgence in old style table-top gaming, only with players gathered from around the world. Table-top wargaming has made this leap with the Vassal system, though you could do it over email with two sets of a game. Now you can see the other players move the pieces and share a virtual board.

With RPGs you can share a chat room and send emails, have a hosted website where maps and players handouts are visible.You can have an old table-top style AD&D session with everyone sitting down at their computer instead of around the dinner table.

What makes RPGs a niche is that they require a Dungeon Master who is not only good at handling the mechanics of the game but also the roleplaying and storytelling aspects. A mediocre DM makes for a mediocre game regardless of the ability of the players, but a fee mediocre players can be inspired by a good DM. The DM is the weak link in the chain. WOTC has tried to do away with this as much as possible and in doing so has made the game more and more like a tactical miniature battle game than an RPG.

That is why I have no worries about AD&D fading away and no desire to see a recruitment drive. The kind of people wanting to DM a role-playing game will find AD&D and more than likely develop their own house rules for it (grabbing any material, rules, settings, adventures, that they see fit to use... old-style gaming).

So as far as what is being produced today it is something like the early days when if you needed something, a city, a tavern, an adventure, you had to make one up yourself, and didn't hesitate to do so because there wasn't any other choice. Today we are spoilt for choices in some ways, but can expect little or no professionaly produced game material to help an AD&D DM. Good. To hell with the mainstream and prefab campaigns. AD&D is a game of imagination and its future promises to be with the people who want to use their own imagination, their own creative ability rather than someone elses. These are the people who will create worlds that will be remembered, write adventures that will be played over and again, and inspire another generation to try for more.

I have no worries about this old-style aspect of gaming going extinct at all.

Posts: 4543 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:13 am

benjoshua wrote:

That's what I suspected. But let's face it, computer games hold some strong advantages. One of them is that you don't need other players to play and/or you don't need other players physically with you. They can be from all over the world! WOW groups with dozens of players from everywhere "game" together to conquer whatever. Plus, the DM'ing is consistent if not boring and you don't need paper, pencils, dice, minis and a ton of other equipment. Of course, if you are really old school, you don't most of that stuff anyway. Shocked

What I'm saying is that, while I love 1e/2e and the commraderie that comes with the bags of potato chips, unexpected farts, late night craziness and everything else, we are going against a stiff challenge which will likely never be overcome.

Not surprisingly, WOTC has turned our game primarily into a business, but they've likely had to do that. When market share is growing, companies can take risks and be highly creative, but when the market share mainstream isn't with us, frankly we're lucky to get much of anything good. I'm not happy about it, but it appears to be reality.

There is hope however. Take a look at this site. We come from all over the world, to communcate and even strengthen our interest. We pool resources, give each other encouragement at deals, help each other avoid idiot sellers and buyers and more. This site is flowing with the changes in the world and our gaming community.

Which brings me to an uncomfortable point. If what I have said so far is basically true, then one of the best things we can do is recruit if we want our style of game to stay and our collections to grow in value. Unless we are actively seeking new people, welcoming them and making this a welome place, then our hobby has a much shorter life.

The problem with that is I'm not really interested in becoming someone I'm not. I like the Acaeum as it is. I think most of us would rather go out of this world as we are than someone or something we're not. And hell, complaining is fun! Anyway, time moves on and so should we. We were a part of history, we had a dang good time and we died. Right? Question

BJ, you make some good points. There is a solution. It lies with the young kids that are the next (final?) generation of pencil and dice gamers, our kids and grandkids. A lot of what we do in our lives is based on nostalgia, not on any logical assumptions or conclusions. If you are brought up liking the original Star Trek, for example, then you'll overlook the ridiculous acting, the clunky sets, the credulity straining plots, etc. Star Trek was a part of your experience growing up, and no high tech Next Generation is going to take that from you.

Likewise gaming, if you have fond memories spending time throwing dice around a table with your parents/grandparents/siblings, just maybe it's something you'll want to do later in life despite the preponderance of computer and online gaming.

Recruiting for "our" way of gaming is a necessary evil, and it can work. Likewise, recruiting for this site can be as easy as telling someone who has purchased a load of 1E material about this "cool" website that caters to old school collectors. I've done this many times, and a lot of my "recruits" are now valued members of this site. It's not hard to do, actually. The ones who are really interested will drift away, while the ones who are will dig in and experience all this site and experience has to offer.

Gencon last year, and meeting with Acaeum members the years before, really opened my eyes as to how membership in this site can continue old school gaming against the onslaught of other forms of gaming. Yes, there ARE others out there who like to game the way we do! I have one face to face group and one online group as a result of this site, when eight years ago I was watching my original group and new groups split apart for non-gaming reasons and wondering if I would ever game old-school again in the face of 3E.

I can attest online gaming, especially using Skype or another voice client, can be just as fun as face to face gaming. And as Deimos says, the fact everyone has the rulebooks and knows how to play makes it even more fun. The social aspect is the best part.

Anyway I agree with a lot of your points, and also acknowledge that encouraging others to join this site is a great way to continue this hobby of ours so we don't become irrelevant. I would say the Acaeum has directly contributed to more interest in old school gaming and old school gaming materials, if nothing else by witnessing the activity at Gencon and on Ebay the last couple of years. A lot of the buying can be directly linked to what happens and what is discussed on this site. So yeh I'm for out and out recruitment of others to the site, and we shouldn't apologize for that.

Mike B.

Posts: 4543 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:56 am

JasonZavoda wrote:

New players and DMs are fine, but I hope there are no recruiting drives. Some people will be drawn toward the style of the early RPG material, unpolished artwork, Gygax's early published adventurtes, Judges Guild. Once those of us for whom it is nostalgia have passed on, it will be those interested in the history of gaming who will keep collecting.

I have no worries about this old-style aspect of gaming going extinct at all.

I guess by "recruitment drive" I meant making such old school material readily available to the "younger" generation....I didn't mean literally beating someone over the head and dragging them into our lair. In some cases I don't think we really use all the weapons at our command to promote our cause. For example, some of us have been DMing 20-30 years...or more...while anyone DMing 3E has 8 years, tops, under their belt. As you said Jason a good DM is usually a good experience, a mediocre DM is typically an average experience, while a bad Dm can lead to a gawd-awful experience. I believe most of us DMing a decade or two, or playing that long, are able to distill the components down of what makes a gaming session "fun", and this is to our advantage. If a kid plays in a 3E game and the time is spent arguing or simply rolling dice, and he plays in a 1E/2E game that is rip-roaringly fun from start to finish, which is he going to want to continue???

I'm not deluded when I say put me up against some young punk who has been playing/DMing since 2000 and give us both G1-3 to run....I'd kick the absolute shit out of him, no doubts. They'd be clamoring to find out more about the "old school" game they were enjoying. Hell, a couple years ago I ran an old-school Metamorphosis Alpha game for a group of teenagers, and they went beserk wanting to play every single second.

Sometimes we don't avail ourselves of the resources at our command. Having several decades of experience gaming and being gamed should be a "secret weapon" to employ in showing how fun and enjoyable and exciting old school gaming is. The last thing any of us need to do is go all elitist and snotty and try to make this a "secret" club where if you don't know the special handshake you are left in the cold.

I knew a guy long ago that used to run an "Old School" slot at Dragoncon in Atlanta every year. He used B1 or B2 and the blue book rules, old chipped crappo dice, metal figures from 1978, and came to the table with nothing but years of experience. His aim was to completely replicate the pre-1E experience of the basic blue D&D box set. His slot was full every year, and this was in the 90's when 2E, the Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and Ravenloft were taking over the industry.

Where's the harm in running a session of B1 for a bunch of kids and hoping even one of them has a fun enough time to want to look more into this "old school" stuff with the monochrome covers, funky Sutherland or Otus illustrations, full of weird puzzle and hack em up plots, where a fighter can't Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack and your first level mage knows Sleep and nothing else? I'd say most of us don't do ENOUGH of that.

Mike B.

Posts: 827 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:08 pm

rofl

Quote:

27 August 2008

* (diff) (hist) . . White Dwarf (magazine)‎; 22:04 . . (+666) . .

figures

Posts: 96 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:21 pm

My rants and raves about the future of D&D (in its various editions) and gaming in general:

WOTC F***ed up with their current version of 4th edition. Had they just cleaned up 3.5, instead of catering to the 18yr old WOW player, they would have retained their current player base.

Being a member of the RPGA for more than 20 years, the WOTC F-up brings certain things back full-circle. 20 Years ago, you could play Boot Hill, Marvel Superheroes, Rolemaster, or most other game systems under the banner of the RPGA, because they supported gaming in general (back when it was run by TSR).

WOTC failed to grasp the concept of promoting gaming for all, and just used the RPGA to promote D&D. Most other game systems fell by the wayside due to lack of support.

Currently, those disenfranchised with 4th Ed. (like myself) didn't play and 4th Ed. at Gencon. I played Pathfinder (which I loved), Heroes of Rogukan (AEG Games), and I sat in the auction and was outbid by Blackmoor a few times Surprised

Sorry for the rambling on of loosely coherent thoughts. Dungeons and Dragons will always be the big man on campus. But instead of the 90% share it used to have, it may shrink to 50%. Why still that much? Because even most of the disenfranchised players like myself still purchased the 4th Ed. product to see what the end result was going to be like. (I bit the bullet for my gaming groups back home)

This was the first year at a major con (in the last 20) that I did not play any RPGA events ever. Shocked

WOTC has other problems besides 4th Ed. Hasbro is hitting WOTC hard for further profits, and now WOTC is leaning much harder on their M:TG tournament coordinators for a bigger cut from their business. I have a friend of mine that didn't have a real job for 5 years, because he ran Magic tournaments in the Chicago / Milwaukee / St. Louis region. In addition, they cut back from 5 worldwide tournaments, down to 3. The Magic Pro Tournament, IMHO, is what has sustained Magic for the last 17 years (because you always need the 2 or 3 most current sets for the tournament). Sell your magic cards now, because their value will probably peak in another year (maybe 2), at most.

Posts: 413 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:53 pm

Invincible Overlord wrote:

My rants and raves about the future of D&D (in its various editions) and gaming in general:

WOTC F***ed up with their current version of 4th edition. Had they just cleaned up 3.5, instead of catering to the 18yr old WOW player, they would have retained their current player base.

Being a member of the RPGA for more than 20 years, the WOTC F-up brings certain things back full-circle. 20 Years ago, you could play Boot Hill, Marvel Superheroes, Rolemaster, or most other game systems under the banner of the RPGA, because they supported gaming in general (back when it was run by TSR).

WOTC failed to grasp the concept of promoting gaming for all, and just used the RPGA to promote D&D. Most other game systems fell by the wayside due to lack of support.

Currently, those disenfranchised with 4th Ed. (like myself) didn't play and 4th Ed. at Gencon. I played Pathfinder (which I loved), Heroes of Rogukan (AEG Games), and I sat in the auction and was outbid by Blackmoor a few times Surprised

Sorry for the rambling on of loosely coherent thoughts. Dungeons and Dragons will always be the big man on campus. But instead of the 90% share it used to have, it may shrink to 50%. Why still that much? Because even most of the disenfranchised players like myself still purchased the 4th Ed. product to see what the end result was going to be like. (I bit the bullet for my gaming groups back home)

This was the first year at a major con (in the last 20) that I did not play any RPGA events ever. Shocked

WOTC has other problems besides 4th Ed. Hasbro is hitting WOTC hard for further profits, and now WOTC is leaning much harder on their M:TG tournament coordinators for a bigger cut from their business. I have a friend of mine that didn't have a real job for 5 years, because he ran Magic tournaments in the Chicago / Milwaukee / St. Louis region. In addition, they cut back from 5 worldwide tournaments, down to 3. The Magic Pro Tournament, IMHO, is what has sustained Magic for the last 17 years (because you always need the 2 or 3 most current sets for the tournament). Sell your magic cards now, because their value will probably peak in another year (maybe 2), at most.

Hasbro is the main reason I believe that Wotc will be out of the RPG business as we know it. The concept of 3.0 was to squeeze out as much profit as possible, rulebooks over adventures. 3.5 was another squeeze and 4.0 another, this time altering the rules even further so that buying new rulebooks is indispensible for playing the new edition. The draconian attempts to squash old edition adventures from 3rd party publishers is a very bad sign. They are trying to force what should be a natural evolution, if the new game system was a popular improvement over the old.

Hasbro demands profits and what isn't profitable, no matter how core to maintaining the long term customer base, is pruned away, like dispensing with print versions of Dragon and Dungeon magazine.

What I expect is a D&D 5.0 that is a miniatures based board game with no real RPG aspects. A type of Warhammer/Heroscape with a varnish of Dungeons & Dragons rules and campaign settings thrown over it. The type of game that no longer requires a DM. I think Hasbro would be much happier producing a board game like Descent, Heroquest, Warhammer Quest or Hersocape than a role-playing game system.

If 4e does not dominate the RPG market it will not meet the profit expectations demanded by Hasbro. And right now, having created their own competition with 3rd party companys, I no longer think they can.

Posts: 96 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Note: How do you put someone's comments in that small white box? Smile

***JasonZavoda said:

*** Hasbro is the main reason I believe that Wotc will be out of the RPG business as we know it. The concept of 3.0 was to squeeze out as much profit as possible, rulebooks over adventures. 3.5 was another squeeze and 4.0 another, this time altering the rules even further so that buying new rulebooks is indispensible for playing the new edition. The draconian attempts to squash old edition adventures from 3rd party publishers is a very bad sign. They are trying to force what should be a natural evolution, if the new game system was a popular improvement over the old.

(DISCLAIMER - Play both 1st/2nd Ed. AD&D AND 3.5 AD&D, and I enjoy them both)

I think that 3.0 was necessary, and I was looking forward to some of the changes, like the d20 system (everything adds up) and how skills are run. Perhaps once every ten years a new or revised edition should be necessary to weed out broken spells / items / concepts that do not work.

***If 4e does not dominate the RPG market it will not meet the profit expectations demanded by Hasbro. And right now, having created their own competition with 3rd party companys, I no longer think they can.

AD&D (through TSR and the RPGA) Dominated the market 20 years ago, and was still able to promote gaming outside of its core set. Everyone played D&D, and tried out other fringe games as well.

20 Years later, WOTC failed to stay with this "business practice", and now those fringe games have forced their way in without RPGA support. So now they won't have to support D&D. WOTC can still be nice and try to support the gaming industry, in general. But such a decision would be a great turnaround from its current business practice, that I don't think it will happen.

Posts: 2616 · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:12 pm

Invincible Overlord wrote:

Note: How do you put someone's comments in that small white box?

Just hit the quite button (upper right). Everything you see between the opening and closing brackets will end up as a boxed quote.

Posts: 827 · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:44 pm

back to normal on oces?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170254560216 just finished $133 stated mint

Posts: 1291 · Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:10 pm

I reckon that's about right - looks tidy.

(Though I would question whether there is such a thing as 'normal' in our hobby) Very Happy

Posts: 1117 · Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:29 pm

Someone in the US want to put in a bid and re-ship something on eBay for me?

The only requirement is no laughing. Wink

Edit: Thanks, lucyjoyce!

Posts: 4543 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:33 am

I love local stories with happy endings! Very Happy

This story happened a couple days ago but is just starting to go national.....pretty great tale of courage and toughness.

Thanks to the Hoehn's for saving myself and other Texans $$$ having to pay taxes to feed and take care of this filth in prison....

Mike B.

Quote:

Texas Couple Turns Tables on Gunmen
BLUE MOUND, Texas (Sept. 5) - When two gunmen smashed through the glass front door of her suburban Fort Worth home, Kellie Hoehn didn't think twice.
The 34-year-old mother of two grabbed a shotgun that had been pointed at her face early Wednesday, starting a struggle that ended with one intruder killed with his own weapon and another in the hospital.
"I wasn't going to let them get to my babies," she said, recalling the moment when she pushed up the muzzle of the shotgun, pointing it away from her children's rooms.
Although the intruders told her to keep quiet, she screamed for her husband. She told her 12-year-old son, who was awakened by the sound of the shattering glass front door, to get his 5-year-old sister and hide.
"It was like a horror movie," her husband, 32-year-old Keith Hoehn, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "I thought I was a dead man. We're fighting for our lives."
With Kellie Hoehn clinging to the weapon's muzzle, her husband tackled the man who held the shotgun. She knocked the intruder in the head with a jar candle, giving her husband a chance to wrest the shotgun.
By then the tussle had spilled out onto the front lawn. There, according to police, Keith Hoehn shot the man with the shotgun and the intruder fell to the ground. Keith Hoehn also shot and wounded the man's accomplice, who had a pistol, police said. That man ran away.
Kellie Hoehn told The Dallas Morning News that she screamed, "Shoot him, shoot him, shoot him," as the man on the ground lunged at her husband a second time.
"Well, I shot him again, and I guess that was it," Keith Hoehn said.
Dakota Scott Benoit, 20, of Richland Hills, was pronounced dead at a hospital. John Garland Pierson, 25, of Haltom City, was in critical condition and in police custody at the hospital.
"I am not happy that someone is dead," Kellie Hoehn said. "But I am glad that my family is alive."
Police said Pierson was shot in the left arm and the bullet pierced his diaphragm and other organs but his condition was improving. He will face charges of burglary of habitation with intent to commit another felony, police said.
Investigators say the couple were just defending their family and probably won't be charged.

Posts: 343 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:38 am

Badmike wrote:

She knocked the intruder in the head with a jar candle, giving her husband a chance to wrest the shotgun.

I told my husband those Yankee candles I love were not a luxury! Thanks for the proof, Mike!

Posts: 1756 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:57 am

Any chance I could borrow a little bit of money off someone here - have found a DIY project Very Happy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/gallery/2008/sep/06/property.housepric es?picture=337329820

ps. I reckon room for a decent sized D&D collection too...

Posts: 2556 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:48 am

red_bus wrote:

Any chance I could borrow a little bit of money off someone here - have found a DIY project Very Happy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/gallery/2008/sep/06/property.housepric es?picture=337329820

ps. I reckon room for a decent sized D&D collection too...

Castle? Looks more like Burne and Rufus' watchtower after being blasted by a meteor swarm. Pretty pathetic looking palisade there....and where is the damn moat?

Now this one is cool: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/gallery/2008/sep/06/property.housepric es?picture=337330144

Looks like a damn good place to hole up when zombies come calling. Very Happy

Posts: 1756 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:54 am

Kingofpain89 wrote:

Looks like a damn good place to hole up when zombies come calling. Very Happy

I always wondered why in Zombie movies - when news of the zombie attacks spread - the main characters always choose to go out. Bolt the doors, lay low, wait for the army to sort it out - and watch the action on the TV news. Very Happy

Sorted.

Posts: 1756 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:59 am

This is even more secure...
But a little more pricey.

http://www.findaproperty.com/displaystory.aspx?edid=99&salerent=99&sto ryid=20604

more detail:

http://www.ecastles.co.uk/seafort.html

Posts: 1200 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:31 am

I seem to recall that there was an article a couple of years back in Wired magazine about one of those "sea-forts".

It was in international waters and the buyer was intent on declaring it a sovereign nation and turning the structure into a secure data-storage center.

Posts: 1756 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:40 am

These maybe?

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2004/08/maunsell-towers-sea-forts.html

Not sure if it is the sealand fort, but man, they look fantastic!

Posts: 96 · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:19 pm

jasonw1239 wrote:

I seem to recall that there was an article a couple of years back in Wired magazine about one of those "sea-forts".

It was in international waters and the buyer was intent on declaring it a sovereign nation and turning the structure into a secure data-storage center.

Correct.

I believe it was a giant slab of concrete (for the most part) approximately 1/2 - 1 square mile in size. As I recall, it was built during WWII.