Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread

Posts: 413 · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:38 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:

Off-topic but in a "vintage" vein . . .

I went to the Metal Masters tour last night: Testament, Motorhead, Dio-Sabbath, and Judas Priest. If anyone else is going to see this tour, wear earplugs when Dio-Sabbath hits the stage, and buy the t-shirts when they are half-price after the concert is over.

I don't know if Testament has a connection to the other three bands, but Motorhead and Black Sabbath have toured together before. And Rob Halford did the vocals for a Sabbath concert a few years back. This gives the tour an old-school, everyone-knows-everyone-else feeling.

Testament: Chuck Billy (vocals) seemed to be in a good mood, and the band played 80s/90s thrash. I'm not a big Testament fan, but they rocked. Opening band = no PA, but the the sound was good anyway. First time I've seen Testament.

Motorhead: Mickey Dee (Michael Delaouglou) is a superb drummer and showman. For maybe 30 seconds he played his drums while juggling three or four drumsticks with his right hand. Shocked

He didn't miss a beat; it was amazing to see. This was a few songs after his drum solo. However, the sound for the rest of the band was terrible. No PA = sounds like mud. An odd collection of songs, but they ended with Overkill, complete with its false stops that mess with non-fans. Smile

Fourth time I've seen Motorhead.

Dio-Sabbath: OK, the band is called Heaven and Hell, after the first Dio-Sabbath album. The PA kicked in, and Tony Iommi tore through my earplugs. Ronnie James Dio looked like happiest man in the world; he even asked someone in the audience to hold up the album covers for Mob Rules and Heaven and Hell. Dio sounds better than ever. Geezer Butler's right hand looked like Cousin It on speed. This was a "greatest hits" from the three Dio-Sabbath albums. Second time I've seen Dio, third time I've seen some version of Sabbath.

Judas Priest: Awesome as usual. The song choices were not all "greatest hits", and only one song from Nostradamus was played. Some of the stage transitions were smooth, while others had the house lights come up. Rob Halford must have done half-a-dozen costume changes. Good God, I've seen Judas Priest five times that I can recall.

How many people in the crowd? The last time I saw Motorhead they played the Stone Balloon in DE. There were 600 people in a bar meant for 300 max.

Posts: 1076 · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:03 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:

How many people in the crowd? The last time I saw Motorhead they played the Stone Balloon in DE. There were 600 people in a bar meant for 300 max.

I remember the old Ballard Firehouse in Seattle . . . pretty much the same situation. Smile

Oddly enough, that's where I saw both Dio, Motorhead, and most of a Michael Schenker show. Ah, I miss those halcyon days . . .

The Metal Masters tour was at the "Superpages.com" Center, formerly the Smirnoff Center, in Dallas. Googling for information, I see that the seated/covered area holds 7,000, while the open lawn holds 12,000.

At 5:30, a few hundred for Testament.
At 6:30, a few thousand for Motorhead.
At least 7000 people were there by the time Dio-Sabbath hit the stage. More people arrived to hear Judas Priest.

An amazing amount amount of the audience was less than 30. Some were well under 16 and with their parents. No fights, and not as much, uhhh, smoke as I have smelled previously. And I did not see the security guards "wanding" people at the gate.

Posts: 413 · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:11 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:

I remember the old Ballard Firehouse in Seattle . . . pretty much the same situation. Smile

Oddly enough, that's where I saw both Dio, Motorhead, and most of a Michael Schenker show. Ah, I miss those halcyon days . . .

The Metal Masters tour was at the "Superpages.com" Center, formerly the Smirnoff Center, in Dallas. Googling for information, I see that the seated/covered area holds 7,000, while the open lawn holds 12,000.

At 5:30, a few hundred for Testament.
At 6:30, a few thousand for Motorhead.
At least 7000 people were there by the time Dio-Sabbath hit the stage. More people arrived to hear Judas Priest.

An amazing amount amount of the audience was less than 30. Some were well under 16 and with their parents. No fights, and not as much, uhhh, smoke as I have smelled previously. And I did not see the security guards "wanding" people at the gate.

That's like the Dead shows. Plenty of people in their 40's but a big contingent of teenagers showing up. I remember the thick blueish cloud that always hung over the lower seats and the floor of enclosed auditoriums. I think everyone was too stoned and melowed out at Dead shows to fight and Motorhead shows were too loud to fight (and that last one was too crowded to do anything but some head bobbing.

Posts: 1076 · Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:33 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:

I think everyone was too stoned and melowed out at Dead shows to fight and Motorhead shows were too loud to fight (and that last one was too crowded to do anything but some head bobbing.

For me, they are a great escape. Crowded or not crowded, sounding good or not, they show me that some people (bands in this case) just keep going no matter what. Testament, Motorhead, and Judas Priest all have new albums out; Dio-Sabbath released some remix album with a new track or two and toured last year.

And they give me more memories to stack on top of all of the others that are associated with their music.

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:24 am

I can't believe I missed the entire flame war. Shocked

Page me next time, you bastards, I haven't got a lot else going on.

Posts: 1076 · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:24 am

lucyjoyce wrote:

Sounds diabolical. Can't wait!

And the first hand inserted into the meat grinder belongs to . . . me! Mad

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:17 pm

jasonw1239 wrote:

For whatever reason a McCain spokesman took a swipe at D&D players... Shocked

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/john-mccain-cam.html

EDIT: Laughing

The McCain spokesman got complaints about his D&D comments and posted a follow-up.

Michael Goldfarb said:

LOL!

I'm going to vote for McCain...more as a symbolic act...because my vote does not count here in Washington State. (I want to be able to say "I told you so" four years from now.)

Still, that's the thing about D&D people...a demographic that is unusually well educated, well read, articulate and techo-skilled.

With the entire internet as a retaliatory weapon, you cross gamers at your peril.

Goldfarb probably didn't know that Dungeons and Dragons still exists. I imagine that someone in his crew quietly helped him draft an apology calculated to soothe gamers. I can imagine the conversation:

"Um..uh..sir, can I make a suggestion?"

"What? You dare to speak?"

"Well...yes, sir. I mean...you just...um....fucked up royally."

"How...? What? You mean the D&D thing?"

"Yes, sir. It's hard for me to explain, but...um...these people...like...run the world and stuff."

"You mean...?"

"Yes, sir. These people...like...run the internet and pretty much every information system in the country. I think they probably run things in Europe too. I mean...you're screwed. At this moment they're writing, like, one million funny and insulting things about what you said. Oh, and a huge number of them are conservatives...they play...you know...wargames and stuff. A gigantic chunk of them are current or former military people."

"Oh God! Help me!"

"Um...yes, sir. I think if we kind of apologize and make it into a joke the damage might be limited."

"What do I do?"

"Well...I have a few ideas..."

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:28 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:

WotC layoffs:

http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20080820

"Lifestyle gamer" ... seriously, who writes this stuff?

The use of that term..."lifestyle gamer"...might actually be a positive sign.

It is just possible that WOTC has suddenly realized that there is a core market for Dungeons and Dragons that is literally not buying their most recent Big Ideas. (See: Gleemax, demise of)

Perhaps they really have noticed that their branch of Hasbro is all about Magic and Dungeons and Dragons...and that you jettison the core market buyer base of these products at your extreme peril.

I have not tracked at all on the sales of 4th Edition. I don't know how that's going. I do know that the rise of games like Pathfinder (purpose built to take away WOTC's core customers) is not not not not not good news for WOTC.

Firing the people who brought us Gleemax might actually be a sign that there has been a market-driven reality check at WOTC.

Posts: 4543 · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:40 pm

FormCritic wrote:

The use of that term..."lifestyle gamer"...might actually be a positive sign.

It is just possible that WOTC has suddenly realized that there is a core market for Dungeons and Dragons that is literally not buying their most recent Big Ideas. (See: Gleemax, demise of)

Perhaps they really have noticed that their branch of Hasbro is all about Magic and Dungeons and Dragons...and that you jettison the core market buyer base of these products at your extreme peril.

I have not tracked at all on the sales of 4th Edition. I don't know how that's going. I do know that the rise of games like Pathfinder (purpose built to take away WOTC's core customers) is not not not not not good news for WOTC.

Firing the people who brought us Gleemax might actually be a sign that there has been a market-driven reality check at WOTC.

I may just be an old fogey out of touch, but in experience so far the buzz for 4E has been non-existent. At least when compared to the giant ramp up and explosion of 3E many years ago.

In retrospect, killing Dragon and Dungeon mags may have been the "New Coke" move of WOTC that led to their demise. No platform for promoting their new game, no buzz, equals no one cares.

This may mean something, or nothing, but Noble Knight's top ten sellers are as follows:

1. Saga of the Rat King
2. The Golden Auroch/Tower of the Black Pearl
3. Dungeon Master's Screen (4th Edition)
4. Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4th Edition)
5. #2 w/The Solomons Campaign
6. Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
7. Shadowfell Trilogy, The #3 - Pyramid of Shadows
8. Saga of the Witch Queen (AD&D 1st Edition 2007 Gen Con Tournament Module)
9. Burma (2nd Printing)
10. Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting

Only three of the top ten are 4E...and THREE of the top ten are 1E adventures! And there is Pathfinder sitting there at #10. If I'm with WOTC, I'm officially panicking now. You should be IN CHARGE of the top ten and Pathfinder shouldn't be a gleam in the eye. Does anyone remember the release of 3E? Books were flying out of gaming stores as fast as they hit the shelves, both WOTC's and 3rd party 3E books as well. Does not bode well for 4E, IMO.

Mike B.

Posts: 2616 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:32 am

Semi-random segue ... not really advancing the topic at all:

I recently had a business trip to Seattle, a city I hadn't been to in years. So I use my GPS thingie to navigate to my hotel in Renton, check in, and have a bunch of time to kill. Out of boredom, I enter "Wizards of the Coast" in the GPS search field ... and the little light starts blinking on like the next street over. Shocked

Now I'm legitimately curious, so I jump in the rental car and follow the directions, and it turns out that driving there was actually the long way to do it. My hotel and WotC's property apparently share a row of hedges. I could have walked there in like 45 seconds.

Sadly, it was the weekend; no one around at all. Not that I would have done much otherwise, but I would have at least checked out the reception area.

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:50 am

Pardon me if anyone has posted this earlier:

WOTC has announced that they intend to modify the GSL terms because the third party publishers have pretty much refused to sign on.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080811

The discussion by the WOTC faithful that follows the announcement is an interesting example of how little those faithful seem to understand about business and/or the RPG market.

Still, when even some of the WOTC faithful are highly critical of the company's recent business moves, one wonders what people over in the Renton offices have been thinking these past months.

If they really listen to their customers and colleagues one would think that they might act differently.

My own analysis: The momentum behind Pathfinder has scared the WOTC management into some dead sober second thoughts.

The dumping of Gleemax and firings in the WOTC staff (possibly related to poor performance in their internet department as much as anything else) are signs that WOTC management is waking up. Gleemax was too impossibly stupid to work. Really insulting to their customers. They may have figured that out, but one wonders why they tried it at all.

With 4th Edition modules coming out at the $24.99 price point...competing with modules for Pathfinder at roughly half that price...WOTC is set up for a serious market whooping. Paizo Publishing does not have to out-sell 4th Edition to seriously hurt WOTC. All they have to do is choke 4th Edition in the cradle by stealing a chunk of the core market.

It strikes me as entirely possible for WOTC to license 4th Edition publishing rights to companies that they know will not wreck the market with poor and/or offensive products. I'm sure there are lawyers clever enough to work out a licensing contract that protects everyone.

WOTC also does not really have to make war on the OGL in order to get rid of it. The existence of a new edition will eventually grind down the hardcopy publishing market. The D20 print market is already dead. That leaves just some pdf publishers...which WOTC can pretty much ignore, or totally undercut with inexpensive pdf products of their own.

There is no need to ban publishers from printing products for multiple editions...they have already stopped printing for 3.5 on their own, with the glaring exception of Paizo and Pathfinder.

If a modified GSL does not lure in third party publishers then I suspect that WOTC's next move will be to sue companies like Green Ronin and Paizo, hoping to wear them out. This tactic is exactly what killed TSR rivals like New Infinities. TSR did not need to actually win against New Infinities in order to drive them out of the market. In fact, TSR was the one that paid in that lawsuit...but they won anyway.

One way WOTC might mend fences (and dominate the market, by the way) would be to return to a hardcopy version of Dragon magazine. I don't know the economics on that one, but Paizo Publishing seemed to be selling both Dragon and Dungeon at a profit. When WOTC pulled the publishing rights they left Paizo with an embedded subscriber base that I don't think WOTC was expecting to stick around and buy products. They did.

The problem for WOTC is what might be called "DM-ographics." The people who were subscribers to Dragon and Dungeon were almost all active gamers. They were also most likely the hard core leaders of local gaming groups. These are what WOTC's recent press release about restructuring refers to as "lifestyle gamers." (A good sign that WOTC is waking up.)

The basic pattern of gaming groups is for the local leader to acquire a new rulebook, then run games that influence other gamers to buy their own copies. As the dungeon masters for other gamers, the subscribers each influenced a circle of (best guess) roughly seven other gamers, with multiple connections through conventions and local gaming scenes.

The consequences of dumping Dragon should have been obvious to people at WOTC. Gary Gygax could have told WOTC that. He was a gamer before he was a businessman. The story of TSR's financial woes and resulting purchase by WOTC should have been a cautionary tale.

My last thought (for the moment) is what must be going through the minds of people over at Goodman Games. They signed on to the GSL as it stands. Are they stuck? Will they be allowed to change over to the new GSL terms? Do they regret not holding out with the other big third party publishers? Will they regret dumping product?

My guess about "dumping product" is that Goodman is happy to have found a way to gracefully unload their warehouse stock. I'm hoping they go whole-hog and trying something like the Green Ronin $2 sale. Now that would be cool.

There is no guarantee that publishers like Necromancer, Green Ronin and Paizo will want to sign even a modified version of the GSL. It may be too late for a company like Paizo to reverse course. Their established market for the Pathfinder modules and rulebook might feel a bit betrayed if Paizo were to switch now. A lawsuit seems more likely.

We'll see.

Mark Cool

Posts: 7612 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:06 am

its actually very interesting this new course of events. i am still not sure it will have any degree of success at this early point, but it does make for a good read on the side-lines for sure.

it still amazes me though. if they did the right thing in the first place and used some good solid common-sense with their research (if they indeed had any useful research material to begin with), they would have saved millions and had that to plow into product and further satisfy demand.

for me personally, i am not that interested either way from a 4E standpoint....i will watch with interest. i like to read the material but i won't ever use it.

i am still hoping that other companies succeed and keep releasing superb material (ie. goodman) and other companies (nudge nudge) get a good heads up in the market before long.

Al

Posts: 607 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:28 am

I curious about the overall interest in rpg's of any kind. It seems like WOTC has made some serious blunders, but if the interest in rpg's is strong, they'll be able to jump back in. They may not be a major player anymore, but at least someone will keep publishing cool stuff.

Therefore, I am curious about everyone who went to GenCon or anyone who has been to other gaming conventions recently as to whether the crowd is getting older and fewer, or younger and larger, or staying about the same. The effect of Gary's passing certainly registered a positive blip on internet sales, and there was widespread talk of internet sales increasing because of gas prices keeping people at home, so the internet/eBay sales of late may not be the best gauge of overall rpg interest.

One reason I ask is that eventually we, or our remaining kin, will unload our collections on the free market. Whether our collections will be sold for a lot of money or a little depends largely on the size, focus and intensity of the rpg community. I guess I am also wondering whether WOTC's blunders will damage our avocation and its participation. Thank goodness for companies like Goodman who publish stuff I like and have 1/2 off sales! Very Happy

I don't worry about it too much because my most valuable collection by far is my comic book collection, and with all the Marvel and DC movies coming out lately, I have some reason to hope that prices should hold steady for a while. Not that I collect as an investment, but no one likes to lose a lot of money. Confused

Finally, if the interest in rpg's is strong and a major gaming company like WOTC keeps making big blunders, then the gates are open for someone else to be the leader. Pathfinder has a shot to take the lead or maybe it will be some other game that appeals to the lifestyle gamer and the FLGS will shift to appeal to that constituency. "Always in motion is the future." Question

Posts: 827 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:15 pm

recreated original braunstein handouts on http://www.flickr.com/photos/lamemage/ off back of http://arsludi.lamemage.com/ blog: looks like fun Smile

Posts: 413 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:43 pm

benjoshua wrote:

I curious about the overall interest in rpg's of any kind. It seems like WOTC has made some serious blunders, but if the interest in rpg's is strong, they'll be able to jump back in. They may not be a major player anymore, but at least someone will keep publishing cool stuff.

Therefore, I am curious about everyone who went to GenCon or anyone who has been to other gaming conventions recently as to whether the crowd is getting older and fewer, or younger and larger, or staying about the same. The effect of Gary's passing certainly registered a positive blip on internet sales, and there was widespread talk of internet sales increasing because of gas prices keeping people at home, so the internet/eBay sales of late may not be the best gauge of overall rpg interest.

One reason I ask is that eventually we, or our remaining kin, will unload our collections on the free market. Whether our collections will be sold for a lot of money or a little depends largely on the size, focus and intensity of the rpg community. I guess I am also wondering whether WOTC's blunders will damage our avocation and its participation. Thank goodness for companies like Goodman who publish stuff I like and have 1/2 off sales! Very Happy

I don't worry about it too much because my most valuable collection by far is my comic book collection, and with all the Marvel and DC movies coming out lately, I have some reason to hope that prices should hold steady for a while. Not that I collect as an investment, but no one likes to lose a lot of money. Confused

Finally, if the interest in rpg's is strong and a major gaming company like WOTC keeps making big blunders, then the gates are open for someone else to be the leader. Pathfinder has a shot to take the lead or maybe it will be some other game that appeals to the lifestyle gamer and the FLGS will shift to appeal to that constituency. "Always in motion is the future." Question

If WOTC isn't a major player then I doubt that they will stick with RPGs. I just don't think they have those options. It is purely a business for the people controlling WOTC and I'm sure there is a $ value below which RPGs are no longer worth pursuing for them. I'd like to see RPGs go back to being produced by interested amateurs instead of disinterested professionals.

Posts: 827 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:58 pm

benjoshua wrote:

I curious about the overall interest in rpg's of any kind. It seems like WOTC has made some serious blunders, but if the interest in rpg's is strong, they'll be able to jump back in.

in general it isnt. hang out with 20-something crowd on general fora and gaming IS computer gaming. wotc misunderstood how to interpret this + tried to pander to that instead of focusing on retaining core remaining niches with $$$ as a minimum

benjoshua wrote:

Finally, if the interest in rpg's is strong and a major gaming company like WOTC keeps making big blunders, then the gates are open for someone else to be the leader. Pathfinder has a shot to take the lead or maybe it will be some other game that appeals to the lifestyle gamer and the FLGS will shift to appeal to that constituency.

more money in minis ask gw. flgs already left high-and-dry in real world marketing with online paradigm shift so difficult to see how to build off of those

benjoshua wrote:

"Always in motion is the future." Question

is true. + never the same river twice

Posts: 1117 · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:15 pm

benjoshua wrote:

Pathfinder has a shot to take the lead or maybe it will be some other game that appeals to the lifestyle gamer and the FLGS will shift to appeal to that constituency. "Always in motion is the future." Question

I'm watching Pathfinder with a bit of interest, partially because I think what they're doing is going to be difficult: make the changes too small, and people are going to go "Why buy a new core rulebook? I've already got the 3.5 core."

On the other hand, make the changes too great and you've got people going "I didn't switch because I'd already invested $X in the 3.x supplement books -- and now you're telling me they're not useful?"

Posts: 607 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:02 am

Rakeesh sah Tarna wrote:

in general it isnt. hang out with 20-something crowd on general fora and gaming IS computer gaming. wotc misunderstood how to interpret this + tried to pander to that instead of focusing on retaining core remaining niches with $$$ as a minimum

That's what I suspected. But let's face it, computer games hold some strong advantages. One of them is that you don't need other players to play and/or you don't need other players physically with you. They can be from all over the world! WOW groups with dozens of players from everywhere "game" together to conquer whatever. Plus, the DM'ing is consistent if not boring and you don't need paper, pencils, dice, minis and a ton of other equipment. Of course, if you are really old school, you don't most of that stuff anyway. Shocked

What I'm saying is that, while I love 1e/2e and the commraderie that comes with the bags of potato chips, unexpected farts, late night craziness and everything else, we are going against a stiff challenge which will likely never be overcome.

Not surprisingly, WOTC has turned our game primarily into a business, but they've likely had to do that. When market share is growing, companies can take risks and be highly creative, but when the market share mainstream isn't with us, frankly we're lucky to get much of anything good. I'm not happy about it, but it appears to be reality.

There is hope however. Take a look at this site. We come from all over the world, to communcate and even strengthen our interest. We pool resources, give each other encouragement at deals, help each other avoid idiot sellers and buyers and more. This site is flowing with the changes in the world and our gaming community.

Which brings me to an uncomfortable point. If what I have said so far is basically true, then one of the best things we can do is recruit if we want our style of game to stay and our collections to grow in value. Unless we are actively seeking new people, welcoming them and making this a welome place, then our hobby has a much shorter life.

The problem with that is I'm not really interested in becoming someone I'm not. I like the Acaeum as it is. I think most of us would rather go out of this world as we are than someone or something we're not. And hell, complaining is fun! Anyway, time moves on and so should we. We were a part of history, we had a dang good time and we died. Right? Question

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:23 am

benjoshua wrote:

But let's face it, computer games hold some strong advantages. One of them is that you don't need other players to play and/or you don't need other players physically with you. They can be from all over the world! WOW groups with dozens of players from everywhere "game" together to conquer whatever. Plus, the DM'ing is consistent if not boring and you don't need paper, pencils, dice, minis and a ton of other equipment. Of course, if you are really old school, you don't most of that stuff anyway. Shocked

Well, there's this thing called the internet, and you can play D&D on it. You've been able to do so for about 25-30 years. You don't have to play WoW.

All you need is a text chat, maybe some rulebooks, and some friends with spare time. That's no more financially demanding than owning a table...probably less if you take into account wood polish.

You can use voice/whiteboarding/dice rollers, if you wish. Some might suggest it's just not the same thing as playing around a table. That's true. But it's still a far cry better than playing a video game, in terms of social activity. Assuming you can all stay up, you can be from all over the world. No need to wait until the next GenCon to play with your friends from overseas.

You can still eat chips, unless you're one of those jerks that never brings the chips. The internet does not support chip mooches. You can definitely have late-night craziness. You do miss out on the farts, but that's the price you have to pay, I guess.

(As a sidebar, the great thing about playing D&D is that generally speaking, we already know the rules. Try playing a "new" game where nobody has the books!)

Posts: 607 · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:31 am

deimos3428 wrote:

Well, there's this thing called the internet, and you can play D&D on it. You've been able to do so for about 25-30 years. You don't have to play WoW.

All you need is a text chat, maybe some rulebooks, and some friends with spare time. That's no more financially demanding than owning a table...probably less if you take into account wood polish.

You can use voice/whiteboarding/dice rollers, if you wish. Some might suggest it's just not the same thing as playing around a table. That's true. But it's still a far cry better than playing a video game, in terms of social activity. Assuming you can all stay up, you can be from all over the world. No need to wait until the next GenCon to play with your friends from overseas.

You can still eat chips, unless you're one of those jerks that never brings the chips. The internet does not support chip mooches. You can definitely have late-night craziness. You do miss out on the farts, but that's the price you have to pay, I guess.

(As a sidebar, the great thing about playing D&D is that generally speaking, we already know the rules. Try playing a "new" game where nobody has the books!)

True, but I think rpg-like internet/computer games have shifted lifestyle gamers away from pen and paper games(and collections). I didn't make that clear. Embarassed