Tunnels and Trolls - Any Dedicated Collectors?

Posts: 1007 · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:27 pm

Rakeesh sah Tarna wrote:

some of their facts on http://www.geocities.com/hobbit_lands/TnTRules.html conflict reality Smile

good one exact reprint on 1st brit print but not 1st us print need to watch out for that masquerading like their reprint starfaring sold as original on ebay

Reprint=photocopy of origional I think...

Brette:)

Posts: 508 · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:27 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:

Of course, there's a number of homebrewed items out there for T&T, just like any other system, but I'm not counting those. Also, it will probably be more work for a European buyer to get all of this stuff shipped to Europe, but I don't think it would be insurmountable.

It is the main problem.
For example, for french edition, this is 2 different companies who published modules and one of those producted only 2 modules absolutely impossible to find... The other modules are very hard to find too. I think for german or other langage editions it would be the same.

And for printing it is another huge problem. For example, some modules have 8-9-10 or 11 printings. And most of these printings have only small differences. So very hard to find differences between printing. Example: labyrinth: at least 4 different formats and 11 printings. Naked Doom: at least 4 different formats and 2 editions, 6 printings for the 2nd edition...

(and shipping rates from USA becomes more insane days after days... most of seller ask for more than $20 for a module because they don't want to ship without tracking number...)

Posts: 5 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:29 pm

FYI. SA stopped publishing after #17. We later sold the name to a fan who published some unknown number of issues, but they weren't "official". We authorized Japanese versions of 5th and 7th edition. There were French, German, Italian, Spanish and UK editions of 5th edition. There were also the Corgi paperback book editions of the rules and about 9 of the solos. The earlier solos were printed on our in-house printing press (which some reviewers claimed was a mimeograph, it most definitely was not). We would print 100-200 copies at a time, and as a general rule, I don't think there were any changes except to change the "printing" number. (as in "5th printing"). First edition T&T rules is extremely rare, and has a unicorn on the cover. 2nd edition had a sea monster on the cover, and is also somewhat rare. I think there were only 100 copies of the first edition rules.
Rick Loomis

Posts: 1464 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:21 pm

Greetings, Rick, and thanks for the post! Smile

Just passing by? Wink

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

The earlier solos were printed on our in-house printing press (which some reviewers claimed was a mimeograph, it most definitely was not). We would print 100-200 copies at a time, and as a general rule, I don't think there were any changes except to change the "printing" number.

That's somewhat less than I'd thought. Out of interest, would that be for the later prints (whose "printing" numbers are legion) vs. somewhat higher on some of the initial/early prints?

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

First edition T&T rules is extremely rare, and has a unicorn on the cover. 2nd edition had a sea monster on the cover, and is also somewhat rare. I think there were only 100 copies of the first edition rules.
Rick Loomis

Yep, still on my long-time 1st edition hunt here, unfortunately. A complete run of Supernova (mostly Lew's) was "easy" in comparison. *jk*
"100" and the various sales figures where/when for that 1st I've taken as gospel as those "sound" spot-on compared with other self-published efforts in that timeframe.

Cheers,
David.

Posts: 5 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:36 pm

Someone made a passing reference to this forum in another list, so I dropped in. Noticed a subject of T&T, thought I'd read it, and reply. Not sure what all you are asking in this post. We did not keep track of how many copies we printed in each "printing". Just felt that it "looked good" to say "11th printing" so each time we fired up the printing press, we increased the "5th printing" to "6th printing" and so on. Since we were printing them in house, didn't seem necessary to print more than 100 or so. (Altho first printing of T&T rules was done by Ken at the University Print Shop.) When we started getting them printed outside with color covers, we started printing 2000-3000 at a time.
Rick

Posts: 1464 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:05 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

Someone made a passing reference to this forum in another list, so I dropped in.

Much appreciated, Rick.

Definitely flavor-of-the-moment, too, what with the "interesting" bidding on Paul Jacquay's copy of Buffalo Castle (per that other thread)!

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

Not sure what all you are asking in this post. We did not keep track of how many copies we printed in each "printing". Just felt that it "looked good" to say "11th printing" so each time we fired up the printing press, we increased the "5th printing" to "6th printing" and so on. Since we were printing them in house, didn't seem necessary to print more than 100 or so. (Altho first printing of T&T rules was done by Ken at the University Print Shop.)

*nods*
Was trying to scope out the time-frame you were meaning for those extra 100/200 at a time: now clarified with that later color cover reference, thanks.
That still does sound lower than I'd expected given how often these turn up, hence the rider question (which was implying) whether the first run or two of the earliest adventures might have been somewhat higher print runs than that, then scaled down to 100/200 for later in-house "printings" to keep stock topped-up?

It's probably a bit of an ask at a 30+ year remove, but were distinct printings always identified; for example on the "Supplement" where I've seen differences but no stated separate "printing".

*g*. Sorry for the sudden flood of questions, I know, but is useful to help build up a better understanding, recorded here or elsewhere online, rather than via easy-to-lose personal emails.

Thanks again & Keep up the good work,
David.

Posts: 5 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:21 pm

I'm afraid I really don't remember what the early print quantities were. In the heyday, we had standing orders for 800+ copies of any new solo, so print runs were higher. But I think for the early solos we didn't print so many at any one time. Thus "11th printing" probably indicates 1500 or so copies.

Likewise I don't remember for sure, but I don't think we were terribly strict on keeping track of distinct printings. It was more for the fun of being able to say "fifth printing" than for keeping track of anything.

By the way, there were at least three different official "T&T Calendars", which were a lot of fun. Any good collector should try to get them also! (grin)
Rick

Posts: 1464 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:38 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

I'm afraid I really don't remember what the early print quantities were. In the heyday, we had standing orders for 800+ copies of any new solo, so print runs were higher. But I think for the early solos we didn't print so many at any one time. Thus "11th printing" probably indicates 1500 or so copies.

Cool!

That does give a better feel for the general picture than I had before, anyhow; and also to know that detailed information is not available.

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

Likewise I don't remember for sure, but I don't think we were terribly strict on keeping track of distinct printings. It was more for the fun of being able to say "fifth printing" than for keeping track of anything.

Kept you ahead of TSR on those? *g*

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

By the way, there were at least three different official "T&T Calendars", which were a lot of fun. Any good collector should try to get them also! (grin)
Rick

Missed 'em more than once. US->UK postage is a bit of a killer for individual items, but I suspect I should've bid a bit higher, nonetheless.
"Fun" is a good word, agreed! Wink

Regards,
David.

Posts: 1346 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:44 pm

Thanks for all the added information. Are there very specific differences between a UK print and a US print? I have noticed that some of the seemingly early Solo dungeons look like they are newspapers (no offense, reminds me a lot of Judges Guild Journals) but in OD&D-style booklet form - I have no idea where these fall into the history of T&T, as I've only really just begun collecting it, having gotten bits and pieces here and there over the years. Also, are there different Corgi printings?

Posts: 2339 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:56 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

(Altho first printing of T&T rules was done by Ken at the University Print Shop.)

Hi Rick,

Since you are here, I've been curious about this for a while. What's the deal with Outlaw Press? In particular, the reprints of the 1st edition T&T rules and the 6th edition T&T rules. Are these authorized reprints or is Outlaw walking the line on copyright. I noticed that jimship recently picked up the Demons & Notmen (1979) book from Ebay - does this mean we will see a reprint of this one as well soon.

Posts: 5 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 pm

Trying to answer three posts:
Outlaw Press is definitely pushing the line. I never gave anyone permission to reprint the first edition, and am offended by it. There is no 6th edition of the T&T rules. Anything that claims to be such is violating our trademark. Because I knew there was an unauthorized one floating around, for ease of reference, we just went to 7th edition. UK versions of T&T (other than Corgi) were printed by my friend Chris Harvey. We left decisions about what to print up to him. I think he believed cheaper was better than high quality. Printed them in a smaller format and with B&W covers. He was trying to keep the selling price as low as possible. I'm pretty sure Corgi did only one printing. They were disappointed in the sales figures, and dropped the contract fairly quickly. (They were expecting "Fighting Fantasy" type numbers.) I'm not familiar with Demons & Notmen. Ken sold a solo to a small company who printed it on newsprint. That was not an FBI edition.
Rick

Posts: 1464 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:34 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

Outlaw Press is definitely pushing the line. I never gave anyone permission to reprint the first edition, and am offended by it.

Outlaw by name...?

Thanks for asking that question, Mark; and for the reply, Rick. That's definitely worth an unsubtle nudge/enquiry from over here to see what response I get, even if I can't do anything about C&Ds.

What about Starfaring? As I'd noted elsewhere those almost read as "originals" and went for /good/ money the first few times they appeared on eBay (by the same seller?).

Posts: 5 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:41 pm

Any reprints of Starfaring would be between Jim and Ken. I agree that it is/would be unethical to sell reprints pretending they are originals. We printed 500 copies of the original, sold them quickly, then printed 500 copies of the second printing, had them in stock for years. (In between printings, Traveller came out!) First printing has a dark red cover. Second printing has a pink cover. Mostly because I didn't know that "cherry red" means the color of a cherry blossom (pink) and not the color of a cherry (dark red). Told the printer "print it on a red cover" and he said "cherry red?" and I said "sure, sounds good." Anyway I relinquished all rights to Starfaring back to Ken long ago.
Rick

Posts: 1464 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:24 pm

> Any reprints of Starfaring would be between Jim and Ken.

Noted. Smile

> I agree that it is/would be unethical to sell reprints pretending they are originals.

It could have been read that way on the first few sold via eBay. The wording on the Outlaw Press website is now somewhat better, stating "newly edited" for example.

> We printed 500 copies of the original, sold them quickly, then printed 500 copies of the second printing, had them in stock for years. (In between printings, Traveller came out!)

Pfft... what's that? *jk*

First SF RPG should've been a fait-accompli but John Snider's accepted proposal to EGG before or during April 1974 was later cold-shouldered and things became a *lot* more confusing on the claims and definitions of "what is a RPG". Starfaring is a /very/ cute idea in that context, regardless of those "academic battles"!

Are there any other questions I should be asking you, Rick? I honestly hadn't expected a straight-up quote on those print runs. (And great to finally ditch a far lower number I'd heard for the 1st print).
Think I still have three or four of those 1sts (unsold shop stock), having given away a couple. Paid through the nose to get the same seller to destroy other masquerading photocopies they had, so wasn't feeling guilty at getting those for a reasonably good price...

> First printing has a dark red cover. Second printing has a pink cover. Mostly because I didn't know that "cherry red" means the color of a cherry blossom (pink) and not the color of a cherry (dark red). Told the printer "print it on a red cover" and he said "cherry red?" and I said "sure, sounds good."

Now that explains why.... Very Happy

Posts: 1007 · Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:47 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

FYI. SA stopped publishing after #17. We later sold the name to a fan who published some unknown number of issues, but they weren't "official".

Run for another 17 issues...

Brette:)

Posts: 7612 · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:12 am

so to take my posting away from the interesting items on ebay, i will post this here. here is what i am going to ebay:

i have tried to find all the printings, but some dont quite say what they are, so have only guessed. they are all the small digest book size (A5?):

buffalo castle 10th
catacombs of the bear cult vol1 - says its a 1st?
uncle ugly's underground doon - doesnt say, just 1978
T&T rulebook - 2nd 1980
deathtrap equalizer dungeon - 2nd ed, 1st 1981 (hole punched)
labyrinth 9th
naked doom 4th
dargons dungeon 2nd ed 1st 1981
wierdworld revised jan 1979
overkill 2nd ed 1980
beyond silvered pane 4th
sorcerer solitaire c1978 doesnt say print anywhere
sword for hire c1979 (england)
arena of khazan 4th
sewers of oblivion 1st dec 1980
sea of mystery 1st jun 1981
blue frog tavern 1st aug 1981
misty wood 1st nov 1981
gamesman of kasar 1st nov 1982

so just bundle them all in one load and ebay together?

oops and i forgot:

4 pocket adventures:

goblin lake
abyss
circle of ice (x2)

Al

Posts: 478 · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:32 pm

Hi Al -

I sold off my small collection of T&T items a couple of months ago. I had about 15 modules of various printings, and 2 or 3 pocket adventures. I started them all at $5 and they all sold, some close to the opening bid, some for a bit more. I found 1st prints generally sell better and you have quite a few of those.

I'd recommend selling individually if you want to maximise your return.

Good luck - hope they do well.

Regards

Mike

Posts: 4716 · Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:12 pm

The copies I sold were extras, I kept one copy of each book. I think David got my 1st print UK copy of the basic rules, if I'm not mistaken. I've seen one other in the years of collecting, but it was rogered to death.

Posts: 2616 · Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:35 pm

FlyingBuffalo wrote:

Outlaw Press is definitely pushing the line.

I suspected as much. They have some pretty neat stuff available, but some of it is too good to be true. I ordered from them once, but I've decided I'm not comfortable with their loose interpretation of concepts such as "copyright" and "royalties."

Thanks by dropping by, Rick. I remember talking to you at a couple of cons (you even talked me into buying a copy of Octagon once Smile

). I'm sure you remember me: I was that gamer ... with the funny T-shirt ... carrying a backpack. You couldn't miss me.