Info to be confirmed

Posts: 1210 · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:05 am

Hey guys, i recently took care on what is written at the top of the page referred to the orignal D&D boxed set and this is the first sentence:

Quote:

Yes, the "granddaddy of them all". Published by Tactical Studies Rules, a fledgling company (at the time) of Gary Gygax, Don Kaye, and Brian Blume. The game is based on the fantasy portion of the earlier Chainmail rules, and also requires the Outdoor Survival war game (by Avalon Hill) to play.

...actually i read in the web that this is not completely correct (according to what i read): as a matter of fact the first two sets of rules for d&d were Outdoor Survival (hence it is confirmed even from that source) and Naval (and not Chainmail)! Is there anybody aware of this? Could this be possible?

I dont want to go against who has written the page here at The Acaeum, but just highlight a possible different version of the origins of d&d (to be confirmed tough!)

ciaooo

Posts: 2635 · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:40 am

aia wrote:

...actually i read in the web that this is not completely correct (according to what i read): as a matter of fact the first two sets of rules for d&d were Outdoor Survival (hence it is confirmed even from that source) and Naval (and not Chainmail)! Is there anybody aware of this? Could this be possible?

Can you post a link to where you read this?

Posts: 1346 · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:00 pm

Outdoor Survival is mentioned in the OD&D books, as I recall, as a suggested reference for in-game play. But, that doesn't mean it was OD&D... sort of how there are suggested reading materials in the OAD&D DMG. That doesn't mean REH wrote the combat section.

Posts: 508 · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:21 pm

The reference you read might have stated that Outdoor Survival was printed before D&D, thus being first.

DMs with groups of players in a wilderness are directed to the OS game, with specific guidelines for adapting it to D&D, so it could be said that OS is 'required.'

Not sure about "Naval."

Posts: 3999 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:42 am

The boardgame, Outdoor Survival, is mentioned because early role-players used its map as a handy substitute for a world map.

Outdoor Survival is otherwise unrelated to D&D.

If they had used Stratego pieces as miniatures, that would not make Stratego the first edition of D&D.

Likewise, using the dice from a Yahtze game would not make Yahtze a primary source for D&D.

If I used the spinner in Life to determine percentile rolls, that would not make Life a role-playing game.

Posts: 404 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:57 am

I think what is being referred to is how certain aspects of Gygax & Arneson's "Don't Give Up The Ship!", a set of naval rules for the Napoleonic era, affected D&D's development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Give_Up_The_Ship%21

This early set of rules apparently had a number of rules that made their way into Chainmail, most notably the armor class system.

However, as I've never seen the rules myself, I cannot say first hand. Just repeating what I've heard here and there... but if true, then yes, Napoleonic naval rules are one of the "grandfathers" of D&D, being that these rules contributed to the "father" of D&D, Chainmail...

One thing that is of note is that the naval rules were NEVER needed to play D&D, whereas Chainmail WAS needed to use the original combat and movement system. Outdoor Survival was also strongly recommended for those without any other sort of campaign map...

Posts: 508 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:28 am

I tried to use Outdoor Survival as much as possible in my OD&D campaign, & consider it an essential part of my collection for that period.

It really does add something, a feel for what kind of society exists in the game world. The problem I have with many worlds is that civilization exists at effectively modern levels, with all the supports of home.

OS is squarely in the ancient world [placed south of the original Blackmoor campaign], where getting lost or starving means something, & where the characters are in a foreign land at every encounter.

Characters even get to pull out the jousting rules from Chainmail whenever they must prove themselves to Fighter-Lord hosts. As they make their way around the map, the randomly-generated domains evolve & unfold with exploration.

It's not D&D itself, but incorporating it put a definite spin on the game; it's easy to see how classics like the Greyhawk Folio, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, the Judges Guild Wilderness books, & Chaosium's Griffin Mountain were all influenced by Outdoor Survival.

Posts: 1210 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:51 pm

ok, tomorrow i will post the webpage...

in any case, the reference i read was basically that the set of rules of d&d requires the chainmail rules for combat as additional set of rules but the real rules were based on naval (a boardgame of the 60s where concepts of armor class and hit points were introduced for the first time!)

but i'd be better if i leave here the link (havent it with me now, sorry)

ciaooo

EDIT: i googled it and found it immediately! here we go: http://digilander.libero.it/ICoboldiBerserker/Home/Articoli/storia_dei _gdr.html

Posts: 604 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:55 pm

Aia, some of us can't read Italian.

English Translation via Google

Posts: 51 · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:14 pm

In a 2004 GameSpy Interview Arneson says hit points and armor class are terms lifted from a set of his own Civil War naval rules called Ironclads. I don't think these rules were published. Tom Wham beat him to the punch. In 1973 Guidon published Wham's Ironclad.

Don't Give Up The Ship doesn't use armor class. Chance to hit depends on distance and whether the gunners are aiming at the masts or the hulls. DGUTS does have defense points, which are the same as the ship's displacement in tons. The ship sinks when the damage inflicted on its hull exceeds its defense points.

The Italian article cites few references. Who knows how they decided the name of the game was Naval. Perhaps they read the 2002 GameSpy Interview and interpreted the world "Naval" in "Civil War Naval Rules" to be a name?

Posts: 1210 · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:17 am

grubbiv wrote:

The Italian article cites few references. Who knows how they decided the name of the game was Naval. Perhaps they read the 2002 GameSpy Interview and interpreted the world "Naval" in "Civil War Naval Rules" to be a name?

dont know, but i know the author of the article (or better, i met him on an italian board), so i could invite him to add some clarifications on what he has written... Wink

Posts: 63 · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:26 pm

sauromatian wrote:

I tried to use Outdoor Survival as much as possible in my OD&D campaign, & consider it an essential part of my collection for that period.

May this be of use to you then

Note should be 5 mile hexes not 3.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/southlandsm.jpg

Rob Conley

Posts: 508 · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:20 pm

robertsconley wrote:

May this be of use to you then
http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/southlandsm.jpg

Actually yes it will be. I had previously given players B/W photocopies of the color original. Thanks!

Posts: 1210 · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:45 am

quick update: i found this sold on ebay italy

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250176166736

...and i suppose that this could be the italian version of the "Naval" mentioned in the article i read...

is there anybody who has got/played/seen this boardgame?

Posts: 5905 · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:57 am

aia wrote:

quick update: i found this sold on ebay italy

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250176166736

...and i suppose that this could be the italian version of the "Naval" mentioned in the article i read...

is there anybody who has got/played/seen this boardgame?

Axel, if this is the game they are "claiming" to have been tributary to D&D, they could not be anymore wrong. Smile

This game was produced in 1979 and appears to be just an Italian transalation of an Avalon Hill game from the US:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/1674

Posts: 5905 · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:23 am

Oh and just looking further on Board Game Geek I found 3 possible games based on your site's description that they could be referring to, although even still all 3 of them seem like very long shots:

1) http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/12463

This game is also called "Battaglia Navale". There is no entry for the date that it is produced so its difficult to tell if this falls in to the 1960's reference from your site

2) http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/18381

This one came out in 1965, so its fits the time frame desription for your site. Honestly in IMO, of the three I found this seems to be the most likely canidate, although the description of the book is so vague that its tough to tell although with it saying "many different aspects for Naval wargames" anything is possible I suppose.

3) http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/12792

This one seems potentially to match the description best with the excetion of the title, as it was produced in 1965 so it fits the time frame listed and the fact it is listed as a two player game only by the site, however the name is obviously completely different and this deal with the USA vs USSR not the American Civial War.

All that said, I agree with the people above that who ever posted the information on that site was either totally speculating, very misinformed or just outright wrong. I find it very telling that with both Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson still around and active in their own respective gaming communties that no one has ever heard of this "Naval" game before or since. Smile

Posts: 1210 · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:20 pm

up!

i recently came into a old site now updated recently... however, it is interesting another source where the "naval" game is mentioned again...

look in the first chapter of this page:

http://www.mbertenshaw.plus.com/Mark/RPG/rules.html

maybe the author could tell us smtg more about that...

ciaooo