My loss is your gain

Posts: 195 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:59 am

I thought I had made a decent deal when I traded copies of the Origins 78 tournament sheets (Giants series modules) for copies of R7-R10. Well now I see the person I traded them to is freely making copies to increase the bidding on his ebay auctions. Well that pretty much makes mine worthless. It does not seem right to me that someone else make profit by selling copies of items I own. So if you do not want copies of copies, but would prefer to have copies of the originals, make me an offer, lets see if we can make a deal.

Posts: 541 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:09 am

Hey Tim, if you can what is the persons ebay username? Can't you report this to ebay?? BTW: Wouldn't copies of the originals be worth the same as copies of copies? I don't see how a copy can be worth any monetary amount.

Posts: 195 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:18 am

I am not the copyright holder, ebay will not take any action if I report it to them. I could try to sic TSR on him, but I do not think they care about character sheets used in a tournament 25 years ago. ebay id = stormber

Posts: 577 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:24 am

Hey Tim, I am watching his auctions going up with some disappointment too. I find any collector who says his items are in NM condition with holes, wear and pizza oil stains to be suspect. And he is among us on these forum boards. Crying or Very sad

Adam

Posts: 297 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:05 pm

Tim, did you mean to say that you made copies of the 'originals' and then traded them for R7-R10? So you gave the guy copies and not 'originals', right? You still have the originals? If so, and if I understand correctly, he's just doing what you did already.. made copies and sold/traded them. I don't see any difference between what he is doing and what you did to him. If you traded the originals and now only have copies and don't pass those around, you're argument is better. IMHO.

Posts: 2910 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:16 pm

Hey Tim--- If you have copies (original copies or not) of the Origins Giants tourney---and any other rare/interesting tourneys---I would be happy to exchange copies with you some time: I'm very interested in the textual development of the 1e Greyhawk tournaments!

Posts: 541 · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:21 am

There goes Allan wanting more photocopied stuff! Laughing

Seriously though Tim, if you have only copies of the originals I don't see how copies of the originals or copies of copies are worth any money at all.

Posts: 195 · Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:36 pm

I started this thread 24 hours after I sent an email to Paul letting him know I was not pleased with the distribution of the character sheets. We have since worked things out and come to a compromise. Therefore my offer of trading copies is off the table. I still have the originals. Making copies and trading them on my part was wrong and is something I will not do again. It was my fear that the character sheets would become a "free with any purchase" type thing and even though they are only copies, it still detracts from the uniqueness. Anyway, as I said, the matter has been resolved.

Posts: 646 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:15 pm

I've just joined this forum and I am in the middle of a personal attack! So much for the warm fuzzies! I guess I have to defend myself. Oblivious to this thread, I replied yesterday to Tim's original email in a congenial fashion. I apologized to him as I did not realize his wishes and promised not to further replicate the character sheets. Done. He says he "can live with that" and thanks me. Then as I read through these threads I come upon one from TS McDuff wherein he makes our disagreement public. Further he gives everyone my username and he and others begin to drag my name through the mud! Tim didn't even tell me that this thread was ongoing when his last email was sent. Thanks there Tim. This should have been a private discussion between us. You gave me less than 24 hours to respond to your email. I didn't even get to read it before you started this thread! Then you say stuff like this:

McDuff wrote:

I am not the copyright holder, ebay will not take any action if I report it to them. I could try to sic TSR on him, but I do not think they care about character sheets used in a tournament 25 years ago. ebay id = stormber

You hypocrite! Why don't you sic TSR on yourself - you made the photocopies to trade me in the first place! You did the same damn thing! May he who is without sin cast the first stone... Go on Tim, do it. Let's clear up a few things here that Tim fails to mention as he drags my name through the mud: -He willingly made the photocopies to trade me for photocopies of R7-10. -He said nothing, NOTHING, about further copies or trading - I mean after all he did it. I expected him to do the same with the copies of R7-10 I sent him. I didn't care because I altered them according to Acaeum wishes to reduce forgeries. As collectables they are worthless! Tim conveniently failed to mention to the forum that there was no such agreement as he did in his email previous to starting this thread:

McDuff wrote:

I had originally intended to make a stipulation on our trade that neither of us further produce copies of the other person's item, but looking back at our email correspondence, I see I never put that in writing.

-He did not alter the copies sent to me. The copies I made and sent to him WERE altered to identify them as such, so they could not be forged. Further the character sheets on Ebay are clearly altered with "photocopies 2003" and are only listed as a freebie. I am not trying to sell forgeries. Tim mentions my efforts this in his private email but not this public forum:

McDuff wrote:

I realize you have altered them,

In his final post to this thread, Tim still fails to restore any damage he has done. He says only that there has been a "compromise". How's that for a glowing apology. Thus my name is completely dragged through the mud without any chance to defend myself. Uncharacteristically represented, I have to make these statements to clear up this issue. This should have been a private matter. Had I not been a member of this forum I would not have even been able to defend myself. I am just a regular guy who collects like everyone else. I auction stuff to make money so I can buy more of the things we all seek. I sell hard and I sell creatively to maximize my success. I have been doing so since 1995. Futures Bright, Paul

Posts: 672 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:25 pm

Ding,Ding?

Posts: 646 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:04 pm

Adam Shultz wrote:

I am watching his auctions going up with some disappointment too. I find any collector who says his items are in NM condition with holes, wear and pizza oil stains to be suspect. And he is among us on these forum boards. Crying or Very sad

Yes, yes, by all means let's trash this guy. Look at all that "garbage" he has on Ebay. He had the *gall* to try and offer it to *us* first for trade before he went to Ebay too. What a bastard. You know why all those items are going up in price on Ebay? Because it IS good stuff! Did you look at it? You should know by now that grading terms are like apples and oranges from person to person - you can't compare them. That is why you read the text and look at the picture. Were you fooled by any of my descriptions? No. Because I describe them well and provide good photo's. Do you know how long I have been doing auctions on the internet? Eight years. I have sold 4,432 items in 51 separate auctions. I have had, get ready, 2,761 unique customers. Do you know how many people have ever complained about my grading system. One. Michael McKnab for a lot of dragon magazines. I offered a full refund but never got a reply. Apparently he wasn't that upset with my grading but I saved his email in case he changed his mind. I know these stats because I keep all of my records in Excel and I pay taxes on everything I sell. It does not include any of the hundreds of *trades* I've made, either. Do you know why I never get complaints on my grading? Because I use version of a system of grading used by Mike Cox of the Dragon's Trove that was formulated in the early days of rec.games.marketplace (c. 1995). Everyone was calling the monocolor modules "pastel" at the time, I used the more accurate term monocolor. The punch in the edge of modules considered to be overstock is called an "overstock nick", my term. Go to the Dragon's Trove and look for yourself. As to condition, it is just that. Not "grade" but condition. Grade includes condition, shrink-wrapping, damage/alteration, and writing/highlighting. Thus "condition" NM indicates the amount of normal wear. Damage, shrink-wrap, stains, writing, alteration, punching, is all listed separately. Thus you can have a MINT condition module, no wear at all, with a printing flaw. The item is MINT and like new but has a flaw that should be listed separately - thus, you get the overall *grade* of the item as a *collectable*. The printing flaw has nothing to do with the condition of the module. I add an explanation of my grading system to my email auctions where there is not picture of the item (see my latest post in the classifieds section of the forum: http://www.acaeum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=201). I quit using it in my Ebay auctions because I had a picture of the item and described all of it's flaws. Check my feedback on Ebay, no one has EVER complained about my grading. In fact I grade very critically and most people beam with "better condition than quoted". I list condition as a letter code and I ALWAYS describe the other elements of grading. As to your "dismay" that a collector would sully himself with such behavior... Please, do your research before you try to muddy my good name and reputation. I am bummed that my opening posts to this forum have to be defensive. I was hoping for better. I plan to drop this subject and let bygones be bygones. I'll hold no grudge. I am just a regular guy who collects like everyone else. I auction stuff to make money so I can buy more of the things we all seek. I DO NOT try to trick or rip off people. I DO sell hard and sell creatively to maximize my success. I have been doing so since 1995. Futures Bright, Paul

Posts: 577 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:37 pm

Hey Paul, I personally would like to see these forums be a place to share and exchange ideas and information as well as have some fun. So then if you feel a need to assert your grading system and toughness with me and others then lets do each other a favor from here on out and ignore one another. If you would prefer to tone it down then you certainly have my welcome. Adam

Posts: 123 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 9:52 pm

Man, I go away for a few weeks and this is what I miss! Never a dull day in D&D land! Anyway, just to belabor a point...I think photocopying is ok for personal use but when the stuff hits EBay, that is plain wrong? It is very difficult for the average collector\buyer to know that what they actually see is what they are getting when it comes to these types of items. Buyer definitely beware. Rolling Eyes

Posts: 646 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:07 am

Howdy Adam,

Adam Shultz wrote:

I personally would like to see these forums be a place to share and exchange ideas and information as well as have some fun.

I agree wholeheartedly, unfortunately that is not what they were being used for when I arrived. True?

Adam Shultz wrote:

So then if you feel a need to assert your grading system and toughness with me and others then lets do each other a favor from here on out and ignore one another.

"Assert"? Nay, *explain*. I accept all grading systems as apples and plums. I was only tough on those who misrepresented me scarce minutes into the threshold. I assure you I hold no grudge.

Adam Shultz wrote:

If you would prefer to tone it down then you certainly have my welcome.

I will use a tone fitting the situation to be sure. Thank you. Futures Bright, Paul

Posts: 195 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:35 am

Paul, You are right, I should have given you more time before I made my gripes public. I saw the auctions go up on ebay and did not have a response to my email so I thought I was being ignored. I am sorry for any damage I may have caused to your reputation. To all - I have had several dealings with Paul and have had no complaints, grading or otherwise, with the items I received. I am sorry I acted hastily.

Posts: 646 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:49 am

Howdy Tim,

McDuff wrote:

Paul, You are right, I should have given you more time before I made my gripes public. I saw the auctions go up on ebay and did not have a response to my email so I thought I was being ignored. I am sorry for any damage I may have caused to your reputation. To all - I have had several dealings with Paul and have had no complaints, grading or otherwise, with the items I received. I am sorry I acted hastily.

Thank you Tim. It takes great character to do what you just did. I really respect that. I too have had nothing but good dealings with you in the past and was afraid we may have permanently damaged our camaraderie as fellow collectors. As I said in my email, I apologize for including the sheets in the auction. I was wrong to do it. I will honor your wishes and refrain from further replication or distribution of them. (Do you hear that everybody! Stop emailing me! Smile

) Further, Tim, I will happily give you a cut of my auction profits for the items in question. So to all you who want 'em, better bid:P I for one am glad to get this over with - lessons learned all around. Very Happy

On this topic 'though: It is strange that some of us have really rare or unique items that sit in our collection, never to be shared to any extent. Indeed, that is part of the item's mystique. Once the information is available many items lose both their speculative and informational worth. I submit that Dragon magazines suffered this fate with the release of the archive. I think too that many of the modules and books released on .pdf suffer as well - orange B3's to be sure. Indeed, I was once tempted to trade a photocopy of my ST1 to TSR/WotC for some choice stuff but struggled with it for the above reasons - was I selling out to the .pdf devil? Thus, as collector's we struggle with our eagerness to share the triumphs of our collection without giving too much away. Is it fair to horde the information? A conudrum worthy of thought! How to share without losing? Futures Bright, Paul

Posts: 541 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:06 am

I personally have a big grudge against those who continue to horde knowledge. There are a large number of those in our hobby who continue to refuse to share knowledge about a certain item. I find that sad to know. I freely share any knowledge I know to other collectors in hopes it might help their collecting out. Are those people going to keep the valuable information they know with them to the grave? Thats not beneficial to our hobby when we have people like that.

Posts: 76 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:57 am

Wait a minute, someone at WOTC is willing to trade choice stuff for a photocopy of ST1? Who are they? What do they have?

Posts: 297 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:30 pm

... And Peace fell across the land and there was much rejoicing... Huzzah!

Posts: 577 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:12 pm

Sorry Jon.. I feel compelled and obligated to follow up. We haven't had much discussion yet as to grading of items here on the forums so I want to touch on it a bit as uncomfortable as it might wind up being. Paul, I hate to appear as though I am furthering a fight here but I am still trying to understand your grading position on some of your items. Of course you have several cool items up for bids that I have considered bidding on. I am afraid this is what has compelled me to speak up rather hastily. I certainly have not been in this hobby since pre-1995 myself and I know very little about the early days and origins of grading systems but I have looked at thousands of auctions and participated in hundreds of transactions over the last few years. There is a general grading standard that most guys follow reasonably well so I think I have a certain handle on grading. Following are a couple of auctions of yours I pulled up for examples. Adam http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2545&item=31208 74667 Can the condition of a gaming collectable be considered Near Mint if it has been folded in half with grease spots? I would think NM should have no more than one or 2 minor blemishes with a tiny pinhole being the more extreme allowable blemish much less 2 other substantial defects. I might grade this item as EX (Excellent) at best. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2545&item=31208 75278 This item is also described as NM (near mint) yet it is also folded in half. Has some kind of dirtiness scuffs on the outer cover and writing inside of it. Sounds a little closer to VG (Very Good).